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Hexbear Discussion Round 2
(lemmy.blahaj.zone)
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this post was submitted on 16 Aug 2023
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I will summarize my views that I left on the first thread:
I will also state that I am biased in my views due to the fact that I am an anarchist who doesn't use the word "tankie", I am very strongly opposed to respectability/civility politics, and I am very careful about SIFTing every bit of news that appears on my feed. For these reasons, my experiences with Hexbear and its users will be markedly different from those with differing views or social media practices, a number of whom report experiencing "harassment, brigading, disinformation, and bad faith arguments". I am sure that these people are being honest, but I can only speak from my own experience.
Lastly, I would like to note that I read that a number of Hexbear users were opposed to federation to begin with, due to the potential disruption this could be for the site's culture, and as Hexbear's culture (e.g. emojis, which improperly scale on other instances) are taken to other sites. It is therefore my conjecture that some fraction of Hexbear users may be intentionally going against their admins' words and being annoying on other instances specifically in order to get Hexbear defederated. I do not fully understand Hexbear's culture or site politics, so I would prefer to hear from Hexbear users on this matter: since this thread is local-only, Hexbear users may wish to send me a DM explaining the controversy on their site regarding federation, and if my conjecture has any merit.
I may edit this comment with other thoughts as they come to me.
Edit: I received this DM from a Hexbear user regarding federation politics on the site. I am sharing this with his permission. I will create an audio version upon request.
Relevant links in the DM:
@JohnBrownsBussy2@hexbear.net also sent me a message reading, "[...] Also, it looks like our admins have posted new rules concerning federated conduct. Some people are being grouchy about it, but I do think moderation is going to improve: https://hexbear.net/post/352119?scrollToComments=false"
What I was trying to say is that wishing death on people is not acceptable, but wishing for the downfall of organisations is perfectly acceptable.
If that leaves a bad taste in your mouth, I don't know what to tell you.
And if the bad taste in your mouth was because you thought I was saying something else, or that I was trying to make some sort of implicit comparison to terms like "people of colour", then hopefully this clarifies things, because it wasn't any of that.
Honestly that just seems like people reading too much into things, even though "people of NATO" is still a really unusual and imprecise phrasing. If English is your second language and it was sort of a heat-of-the-moment edit, then phrasing things oddly is understandable, and it's really bad that people were assuming ill intent just because of unusual phrasing.
Anyways, sorry if I've been too impolite and added too much to your stress, you do good work overall (and if this seems like groveling, sorry about that, too) — I'm not going to change my views, but it's also probably best not to keep prodding at such differences, in your den. I wasn't aware of this unwritten rule when I signed up and I'll make sure to respect it regardless of how I feel about it.
That's what this whole thing has been, beginning to end. Sometimes deliberately so.
It's not ok to wish death on people. It is ok to wish for the downfall of oppressive organisations. Some people believe the latter is only achievable through the former, and use "motte and bailey" ambiguity to say the latter but mean the former.
That line is the point of disagreement, and because I do disagree, people used the often deliberate ambiguity to paint me as ignorant.
The truth is, it doesn't matter what I said, because that ambiguity (by design) makes it impossible to navigate without meaning getting lost. And because of the nature of hexbear, as soon as I was seen as even implicitly "defending NATO", it was open season
Would you like me to try to explain again why I disagree, or should I just tuck my arms and pout about it?
I get why you and others disagree. What I don't understand is why so many people insist that I have to be ok with wishing death on really bad people too, or otherwise I deserve the shit that happened in that other thread.
It seems like a really strange point to turn on someone over...
I really do not think it's fair to go after Ada about this. I think this is such a weird hill to die on.
If you say so, but I just feel like this reflects on a broader issue I've noticed of the admins here being overly concerned with civility or respectability, and it just felt very avoidable.
Edit: And besides, my life is nothing if not a series of weird hills to die on. I think I've always had a problem with refusing to let things go, which can be both a strength and a weakness.
not from blahaj, but considering your concerns about federating with illegal content i feel like its important to note that calling for violence against or deaths of people or groups of people is illegal in large parts of the world, especially those that federation users will be from
I can't find any laws that would apply in Norway's or Minnesota's criminal codes. The only laws there that I can find concern threats against specific people and threats to commit terrorist acts. People saying "death to Lorem-Ipsumland" is most likely just going to be taken as free speech.
When I'm referring to "illegal content" I'm honestly specifically thinking of websites used in the proliferation of drugs, snuff, and sexual abuse material (incl. drawings thereof), and websites used to plan real-world criminal acts. It's also illegal to share memes based on anime fanart due to copyright infringement, but you don't really see anyone worrying about that, do you?
im sure that theres more uproar over hexbear for political reasons, but i feel like there are other valid reasons for copyright issues not causing as much concern as perceived death threats or calls to violence
Honestly, if you ask me, it's politics all the way down.
if youre unable or unwilling to accept that someone might feel more strongly about perceived death threats and calls for violence than copyright law for non political reasons, im not sure what to tell you
I for one do not mind admins that are concerned with civility or respectability. Forums should be about talking to people and I will always prefer to talk to people with civility and respect.
This comment has been bothering me for the past two hours. I just don't know how to respond to this perspective which clearly comes from a very different lived experience. Assuming you were a Redditor before, which types of subreddits did you spend time on? I spent most of my time in the past few years on TGCJ, which could be described as the most "anomalous" of the major trans subreddits. I see a lot of the TGCJ spirit in Hexbear, in how anti-respectability-politics and anti-tone-policing it is, and this is probably why I'm so invested in defending Hexbear even as a non-member.
Because I have moderated communities that live and die by the quality of their discussion and I understand that once you slip too far, you will not come back. Rabid circlejerky instances that promote dogpiling do not facilitate discussion and as a whole are bad for the health of the threadiverse. If people can't have a reasonable discussion here they will simply leave. That does not mean that I think hexbear should not exist, but they should probably be contained to their own corner of the broader threadiverse.
I can't think of anything less trans-friendly than mandatory pronoun marking.
I quite liked this quote from Isabel Fall (more about identity than pronouns specifically, but still related!)
I think mandatory pronoun marking is a bad thing in IRL spaces, but in online spaces it's probably less of a big deal, especially when neopronouns or even None is an acceptable answer.
I essentially agree with the quote, but I can think of plenty of things that are less trans friendly than a digital pronoun circle. My point is that there is a very large trans population on Hexbear, and we can only assume that the trans population there are also universally the types of trans people who are open to sharing their pronouns publicly anyways — or else they would most likely just join a different instance without that requirement.