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It's all tied together
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 21 Nov 2024
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yknow its funny, because if you really wanted to, you could argue that the very pretense of being trans is a biological factor, since there must be something beyond what is just "social norms and rules" determing gender. Such that trans people are technically, biological women.
Just not physically. So the correct way to write this would actually be "women determined to be such as by the definition of the classical physical definition, plus the correspondingly accurate neurotypical construction that tends to align with the concept of a woman more broadly"
just rolls right off of the tongue.
If we are gonna insist people have to be categorized into either biological male or female, a lot of trans women would most reasonably be placed into the female category and a lot of trans men into the male category.
Trans people change frequently are changing their biology to match their gender.
I think that's what KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com was trying to say.
I don't think so. Seems like KTI was talking specifically about trans women being neurologically female (and neurology is part of biology). I'm talking about the rest of the body also being female.
My interpretation is that they were saying that the argument of trying to force people into the gender roles assigned to them based on some sort of physical attribute is dumb. And that the argument could easily be used against itself because trans people being the gender they feel is correct simply because their need to be such is a part of their physiology.
I think the example of trans women was not an attempt to limit this logic simply to them, but was just a method of communicating the idea.
I could be wrong, though. I may have just been reading it optimistically in how I'd want it to be.
I wasn't disagreeing with that part of the argument or suggesting that were limiting the discussion to trans women for nefarious reasons. I was only disagreeing with the quoted part. Biological sex is also a social construct, so the whole topic of physically being a man or woman biologically is still in the same realm of thought as race science, so I think the topic is sort of questionable to bring up at all. But even if we want to follow that logical, some trans women have far more in common with their body with a cis women who have had a hysterectomy that they do with cis men.
I'm also not suggesting that trans women need medical interventions to be women. Just that if you tried to assume some logic to actions of transphobes (your biggest mistake), then even if you excluded neurological biological reasons, then biological sex should still allow those that meet the transmeds/truscums BS ideas at least, yet transphobes still take issue. Biological here is just a dog whistle.
Also not suggesting that said person would necessary disagree - my goal was just to add to the topic.
i disagree with this conceptualization. I would argue that biological sex has a relevant social construct to aid it's conceptualization. Gender norms and roles would be an extension of this.
I think biological sex is a function of the human organism.
maybe, but i'm operating strictly in a philosophical sense here, so it's not like i'm arguing that people don't physically exist at all or anything, essentially just making the argument that the physical existence is irrelevant to the argument because there is a much better argument in the form of this conceptualization.
while this is true, i question the relevancy in making this as a logical argument, i could argue that a human has more in common with a banana than with a meteor for example. I'm just not convinced that the physical existence matters all that much in this case.
i don't think you are, but i question whether or not this provides some level of subconscious restriction to the concept at hand. Relevant or not, it may not even matter at the end of the day. That's not really something i've spent a lot of time thinking about, logically though, it heavily restricts how you can conceptualize things. Which you could argue is the human framework i suppose. We are humans at the end of the day.
i'm not, there's not point, i'm essentially arguing that their entire conception of the issue is fundamentally flawed and cannot work. And that people spend too much time missing the forest for the tree in front of them.
i always appreciate in depth discussion about things, it's a good way to learn things.
this is pretty much exactly my thinking.
As for limitation of bounds, it's a way to communicate the idea without bloating the workings of it heavily (i could get into the weeds, but those are irrelevant when talking about a macro-system)
as for trans women specifically, it was probably just cuz the thread was based on women lmao.
FOREWARNING: highly philosophical bits incoming. Don't read into anything i say too heavily lol.
this was my argument exactly, except a little bit backwards. I think people are in some capacity, a little bit too focused on the physical nature of things, because the physical body is quite literally not the determining factor here. It's also a bit of the paradoxical nature of gender dysphoria.
My argument basically TL;DRs into "trans people are actually physically separated from their birth sex, rather than mentally separated from their physical birth sex"
the only reason the physical body is relevant here is because i consider it similar to other physical deformations. At birth or not, the physical body is not perfect, biology is not perfect, whether or not the physical sex or the neurological sex developed independently of the other is entirely irrelevant to what the actual perceived sex of the individual is. If we're going to take one source as the true source, it's probably not going to be the physical one, for various reasons, it's going to be the neurological one.
The very fact that the existence of this separation causing problems with things like dysphoria, i think demonstrates that it is not the physical concept that matters, it is the neurological one.
TL;DR TL;DR if we're going to adhere to an authoritative source of what determines the gender/neurological sex of an individual, following the neurological path seems like both, the path of least resistance, and most likely functional outcome you could come to. Both because neurology is very confusing and difficult (otherwise this would be a solved problem, one way or the other) and also because the body is inherently imperfect, and relatively trivial to adapt.
I really just don't think there's any legitimacy in the physical body in this context, even though it's a huge pain point, i would argue that's a secondary effect of the neurological function, rather than a primary function of the experience itself. I could theoretically get a full sex reassignment surgery. Which might change my physical appearance, but there's very little that would do for my neurological existence. Therefore, i would argue i am still my original gender, even though my sex has changed. I.E. trans people, are by default the correct gender, their physical sex for whatever reason, is separated from their gender, causing the issue. Therefore you cannot conceptualize this issue as a "mental dysfunction" at all, completely destroying the entire conservative conceptualization of trans people.