this post was submitted on 18 Aug 2023
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They didn't. Civilian losses are very low in that war, UN estimated it for around 10000 dead (for both sides). Compare it to when US Shock and Awe any country and kill milllions. Russia is incredibly restrained as far as the modern warfare goes.
Expected? By whom? Liberals seems to expect millions because they as usual projected the US army standard. I said America not because some kind of dreaded whataboutism or deflections, i used that example because as foremost warmonger on the planet they do set up the standard of contemporary warfare, which is to bomb everything, drone weddings, burn cities with white phosphorus, poison the earth and people with defoliants and depleted uranium, drop millions of bombs that kill people even decades later... yet no one else except their puppets seem to even want to get close to that standard. And look, they are sending the same shit to Ukraine.
Why are you say anything about justification now? I was rebuking your argument that Russians committed mass murder in Ukraine, which they didn't and you agreed saying the numbers were expected, but you suddenly moved into some kind of moral argument for some reason.
Now i don't agree with the expectations, because you still didn't said who expected it and from reading of nearly all liberal articles about those numbers they not only expect much more but are even making them up contrary to the apparently most trustworthy assessments.
Nakba is comparable in terms of numbers of victims and lenght of war but the military forces were much lower than the ones in Ukraine and intensity of the war was also much lower - just compare the ratio of military to civilian losses.
Fair enough, i guess my argument was emotional because i'm drowning in the absolutely inane prowar propaganda in polish and enlish media every day.
Bucha is a red herring. The event was thoroughly investigated the very day after it was suddenly mediatized, and two pieces of evidence stick out:
These civilians were killed by Ukraine. They didn't publicize it right after they retook the city, it took them a few days to talk about it -- plenty of time to commit a massacre. There's more inconsistencies but these are the two big ones to me. Like some people raised the problem that the bodies looked very fresh (and that nobody talked about the massacre online before UA retook the city), when the official narrative was that the massacre was committed a month before.
edit: as for mass graves, one of them I believe to have been made by Ukraine. I couldn't tell you which one exactly though at this time, but Esha K. talked about it on twitter. Russia had made proper graves and even brought UA POWs to witness the processions. They filmed everything and that's why I mentioned Esha, she has the video on her twitter somewhere. They had also offered to send the bodies to Ukraine for proper burial, which Ukraine refused. So they buried these soldiers themselves. Ukraine then opened the graves and threw the bodies in a mass grave to once again pin something on Russia.
Remember that Ukraine has committed verifiable war crimes (they boast about them) in just the first months of the war, I posted about this before trying to keep track of them.
There was another red herring, a woman supposedly wearing nail polish, which NAFO trolls jumped on to claim she was a civilian, but there are women in the UA army and they're allowed to wear nail polish like you don't stop wearing it just because you're a soldier. So it doesn't mean anything.
The nyt(yea I know) deep dive convinced me at least a large part of killings were carried out by Russian soldiers. Tying phones, street cameras and other evidence to specific deaths was fairly exhaustive. It seems a case of revenge killing and is still a war crime. Massacres do happen and soldiers who commit them should be prosecuted, although I doubt the nyt would spend the hours to do this and call for the prosecutions on Americans for the millions who died in the middle east. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/12/21/world/europe/bucha-ukraine-massacre-victims.html
You can say well the Ukrainian push for regular people to fight back or whatever leads to things like this and you can be right. I don't think that gets these soldiers off the hook.
I'm reading through it through firefox's reader to bypass the paywall and most of their stories are conjecture (I read most of them and skipped the rest). Even worse, they're just that: stories. They have no dates attached, just a name, age, and "was never seen again". I don't doubt these people were in Bucha in March, but beyond that the NYT is not tying them to the massacre itself. Just that they were in the fighting. Like there's telegrams screencaps saying "this person was killed march 5 can you help me move their body" but the message itself isn't dated, very amateur.
NYT is the journal that has been cheering for the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan for decades, they have a very high bar to clear if they want to be taken at face value.
The part about how they reported this is word salad, it's the exact same method Buzzfeed used to find the "Uyghur concentration camps" that were actually factories and schools: google maps and their "sources"
There are literally videos of Russian bmps shooting people in the article I linked, maybe the ad block is blocking it. The video done with the article maybe presents it in a more digestible format.
Again nsfl bc dead bodies ect https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/europe/100000008299178/ukraine-bucha-russia-massacre-video.html
Yeah I saw some of those videos, but Ukraine has been known (and indeed as far back as the early days of the war) to impersonate Russian soldiers and film propaganda videos.
We're talking about the country that had a guy proudly cook human skulls in soup on video. There was also the video where a driver got scared in town and drove his armored vehicle over cars in the city trying to get away and the propaganda machine instantly claimed he was Russian, but it turned out to be UA forces.
I don't personally know enough about Russian/Ukrainian armoured vehicles to say if they're similar or Ukraine had somehow seized one back in March of last year but again, NYT has a very high bar to clear if they want to be taken seriously. And then we went from "Russia didn't commit the Bucha massacre" to "oh but they did kill civilians even if it wasn't a massacre" which I don't know what the goal of this reframing is :/
I don't understand are you saying these videos are fake? I understand there is propaganda I'm saying in this instance it seems pretty cut and dry.
I never changed my stance as you suggesting. With
My second comment is addressing this from your 1st response
The video ties many of these people to specific videos of their deaths, their phones to specific calls made to Russia by soldiers who took their phones along with eyewitness accounts. Your assertion that its just stories is not accurate. It would be valid to say the article does not account for every death (I don't think that is what you are trying to say?) but I do feel like that line of discussion is really bad faith and gets away from the core of what we are discussing by moving the goalposts.
My second reply I made in good faith, maybe nyt was fucking with the ad blocker or you simply missed the embedded media accompanying the article. The article clearly shows more evidence than:
In my personal view of the event as a whole, the evidence doesn't show a picture of genocide that libs like editorialists at the nyt would attribute to it. It does show a specific military reprisal against civilians done by a military unit that would constitute a war crime. War crimes committed by Russia and Ukraine are not unique and a consequence of the wests utter genocidal (in this case it's genocidal bc slavs historically and today are viewed as lesser, see "asiatic horde" portrayals online) meddling.
It feels really disheartening the way in which you have mischaracterized not only the article but what I'm trying to say. By accusing me of reframing the conversation for some unnamed "goal" it feels like you are basically calling me a fed or ignorant.
Overall im contesting that it is not correct to claim "These civilians were killed by Ukraine" As you did in your original comment. I think the proper analysis of the event is that it was a crime but it as not endemic as evidenced by comparing this conflict with one like Iraq or Vietnam.
I'm sorry in advance if I was clear or am missing the point your trying to make.