If Putin dies, a successor might (secretly) align with Ukraine. Something like "If you attack XX, I will remove my troops from ZZ, if you don't attack me. I will be focusing on a bread & butter campaign if I run Russia. Take care of my rivals in the meantime, mm'kay?"

Mind, I would prefer Russia outright being conquered and Marshall Planned into something completely different, but I would accept the other scenario if the outcome could be decent. In this case, Ukraine gets back Crimea and all other territories, plus security guarantees.

[–] mojofrododojo@lemmy.world 4 points 4 days ago (20 children)

Marshall Plan

who would invest in russia? honestly? belarus? it's other parasites?

[–] SabinStargem@lemmy.today 8 points 4 days ago (2 children)

Considering how Western Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan turned out after their Marshall Plans, I think there is a lot of evidence that reforming and rebuilding a country helps with making them into democratic major powers. I would guess the EU would do it, and Ukraine would want their neighbor to stop being a jackass.

Poland certainly wouldn't want Ukraine to annex Russia, that just means a new rival on their doorstep. Ditto for Turkey, since they are a naval bottleneck, and wouldn't want a Uber Ukraine to get ideas. So on and so forth. A lot of nations would rather a smaller and reformed Russia, than a bigger and hungry Ukraine. Better to foster small but capable democracies that want to be part of the EU bloc.

[–] Aqarius@lemmy.world 4 points 4 days ago

Honestly, there's a solid argument that one of the reasons for post-soviet states being what they are today is that the dissolution of the USSR wasn't followed by a Marshall Plan of some kind. OTOH, it's questionable if it was even feasible to pull one off considering the size of the USSR.

[–] mojofrododojo@lemmy.world 1 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Valid points, but asking Ukraine to help rebuild that shitstain of a country is beyond the pall for me.

[–] SabinStargem@lemmy.today 2 points 4 days ago (1 children)

I would assume that Ukraine would also get a Marshall Plan. The place is rich with resources and food, but lacks the infrastructure to take advantage. That makes Ukraine suitable for investment, since the EU would get a healthy trading partner in the long run. As with Russia, letting Ukraine rot after the conflict could lead to trouble down the line, so keeping democratic Ukraine in good health is key to keeping the peace.

Be it pragmatic or moral, there is a great deal of value in well executed Marshall Plans for everyone involved.

[–] mojofrododojo@lemmy.world 1 points 3 days ago (1 children)

they gotta get rid of putin first.

I dunno, you make valid points, but I cannot foresee a peace with that ghoul

[–] SabinStargem@lemmy.today 2 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I wasn't advocating for his survival. His elimination is a prerequisite to a genuine Marshall Plan. The question is what happens after his death, and that means supporting Russian leaders who prefer democracy over the old ways.

[–] mojofrododojo@lemmy.world 1 points 3 days ago (1 children)

supporting Russian leaders who prefer democracy over the old ways.

genuine query: who's left now that navalny was murdered?

[–] SabinStargem@lemmy.today 2 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Dunno, honestly. Still, I expect that if the EU implemented a Russian Marshall Plan, they likely have intelligence profiles on who is least bad to head up a budding democracy. If that someone steps out of line, they are removed in some fashion and a different person is tried until the project succeeds. In this hypothetical scenario, the EU can shut the Marshall purse strings until an appropriate puppet is willing to be tied to them. Or leave through a convenient window in search of a replacement.

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