this post was submitted on 23 Apr 2025
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As a decentralized store of value.
But it's not.
It's an actively used currency. Very actively. There's probably been thousands of transactions in the time we've had this chat.
It's just that pretty much every single one of those is for drugs or other illegal services, mostly drugs. (I say "pretty much everyone" because there's the offchance that someone has actually used one of those niche stores which accept bitcoin).
So I've given you plenty of proof.
Based on your best guess.
Its also not relevant. Bitcoins key utility is as a store of value, and that's what its being used for most.
No, based on actual data available.
We only have data for busted markets, which is only a miniscule proportion of the trade being done, yet it still far outweighs any transactions used for legal purposes. Even when stores like growstores accept bitcoin and growers sometimes use their profits (made illegally, from several illegal transactions) to do one transaction which is for legal grow shit. The amount they'll make off that gear will be far greater than the it's cost.
This isn't a debate. This is you just refusing to accept reality.
https://syntheticdrugs.unodc.org/syntheticdrugs/en/cybercrime/onlinetrafficking/payment/index.html
https://www.europol.europa.eu/cms/sites/default/files/documents/Europol%20Spotlight%20-%20Cryptocurrencies%20-%20Tracing%20the%20evolution%20of%20criminal%20finances.pdf
It's impossible to have specific numbers of a black market, in case you want something even more specific, but despite not being able to pin down specific numbers, it's obvious.
First of all, we aren't talking about cryptocurrency, we're talking about Bitcoin.
Secondly, like I already said, it's irrelevant. Bitcoin is for storing value.
Edit: To put it another way, let's say >51% of Bitcoin transactions are used to facilitate illegal activities -- so what?
Like I said, this isn't a debate. It's just you refusing reality.
Those studied specify bitcoin, but they talk about it as the tech it is. Some memecoins have stock sure, but the most stable and valuable is bitcoin. Why? Because most of it is being actively used for criminal enterprises.
There wouldn't be any value in bitcoin without drug markets. That's the point. The only reason some wannabe 20's think it's to "store value" is because they can't afford any of the things which actual investors invest in.
You demand proof from me, yet you don't even offer a rationale to your delusions. Quite hypocritical, no?
I'd say it's closer to 99.9%, and that's a conservative estimate, in line with data. Where's yours?
Like some whiny kid said a few comments ago: "source?"
Also you've failed to cite anything that even points to a ballpark percentage. Which data specifically points to ~100% of Bitcoin transactions being used to directly fund illegal activities?
You ve literally no proof for yourself delusions about it being a "store for value", but I've showered you with europol and other statistics showing that TRILLIONS are being used in criminal enterprises.
Do you know how large a number a trillion is?
Just because there are some barely valuable pump and dump meme coins doesn't make my original assertion any lesser correct. Having a few hundred million worth is nothing compared to the TRILLIONS in drug money.
And like I said, it's inherently impossible to quantify a BLACK MARKET, so the data we have is only showing a miniscule proportion of the actual illegal trades and even the best estimates are shown to be extremely conservative.
You just can't face reality.
https://www.drugpolicyfacts.org/node/4383
Overlap that with the value of bitcoin. When was it's sharpest rise again?
Oh my. Looks like reality keeps differing with your delusions, mister "I-won't-accept-being-wrong-no-no-no"
You haven't even argued that it isn't a store of value... Only that it's propped up by illegal activity.
Trillions of USD, not trillions of Bitcoins.
Again, we're talking exclusively about Bitcoin.
I can face reality just fine, you just can't seem to prove your claim.
Also not sure why you keep trying to, because again it's irrelevant
Well yes. That's the point. You can bank in anything that you can rely on, and you can rely on drug markets making money. "A store of value" is nothing but an investment. And the only reason it became actually reliable and profitable to invest in Bitcoin is because of the drug markets.
You're pretending like you can't infer things. Like people can't infer things. Do you know what that word means?
And had you bothered to read the studies, you'd notice the specify they do as well.
Well not to a person who can't face reality, no. Obviously since you can't face reality, you'll decry anything as "not sufficient evidence", because your ego is just too weak for you to ever admit to having been wrong.
Show me proof that I'm wrong. Oh, wait, you can't, because I'm right and I've proved that and if you research the subject you'll find nothing but data agreeing with me and disagreeing with you.
So we agree, it's a store of value.
Was in reference to you bringing up pump and dump memecoins. That's why I quoted that part...
What reality have I not faced?
That's not how that works, and you know that. I also never said you were wrong about anything except Bitcoin not being a store of value, which you agree that it is. So not sure what you're even looking for...
No you haven't.
Then present it.
Disagreeing with me about what...?
Much in the same way that any blunt object is a hammer? Yeah, sure. But if you go around calling wrenches "hammers", just because you can hammer things with them, people are gonna look at you as if you were... eh.. "special."
Those are still a marginal proportion of the trade. A hundred million is 0.01% of a trillion, as I'm sure you weren't aware. Some meme coins being pumped and dumped IS the >0.01% I was talking about.
Yes, it is, because you refuse to acknowledge any data or any information we can infer from the data. Oh right, sorry, you don't understand the word. It means deduce or conclude (something) from evidence and reasoning rather than from explicit statements.
Yes, I have.
I already have, and you've the whole internet to research data or information supporting your delusions. Which you don't have and NEVER WILL. You know, because they're delusions.
I acknowledge the data you've cited -- but you have done nothing to demonstrate how that leads to a reasonable inference that ~100% of Bitcoin transactions are for illegal purposes.
If you set aside purchasing or selling bitcoins, then yeah, that is more likely true than not.
I've asked you what else could there be? What use can it be for people? And the only thing you came up with is "a store of value". Meaning you're investing in something that is being actively used as currency, despite you not having a single use for that currency, because the market which utilises that currency is so strong, it makes investing (ie "storing value with the expectation it's gonna grow") in a currency profitable.
Like I said from the start, the drug trade created the value which made Bitcoin a worthwhile investment. That's what created the value; a market valued in TRILLIONS.
Remember that? How the value is in the TRILLIONS? Or are you just gonna pretend all the data I showed — from fucking Europol and not some niche independent propaganda rags — doesn't exist?
Yes, it's an investment to mainly hold, not unlike gold.
For the 50th time, how it became popular is completely irrelevant. Why are you so fixed on it?
You'd just like to avoid it, because it's central to this.
Meme coins come and go, because they're unreliable. They're unreliable, because there's nothing actually backing them up, much like fiat currency.
However, gold has. Because gold is naturally rare. There's a reason there's a thing called the gold standard.
Because currency being backed against something real makes it more stable.
Much like Bitcoin relying on criminal transactions makes it reliable.
So again, you're completely delusional to think there's other transactions in Bitcoin. Name ONE.
I can and have shown you data from which you can infer that during this discussion of ours, tens of thousands of illegal transactions have taken place using Bitcoin, but you can't even NAME a thing you'd use Bitcoin on.
You've still not understood this isn't a debate. I'm not arguing you.
Correct. That is true about meme coins.
As does Bitcoin. Maybe you just didn't know that. There is and can only ever be a fixed amount of Bitcoin. You might even be able to eventually travel to other planets and discover more gold there, but you can never discover more Bitcoin.
Tens of thousands out of roughly how many total?
Correct again. You are absolutely not.
Yeah but the value increasing comes because of the rarity. That's why bitcoin is now 83 000 more valuable than it was a mere 10 years ago when I had it.
If the value of gold had changed by 83 000 times, we wouldn't be having this conversation. (The world would have ended, one way or another.)
Of all the transactions? What else would it be used for? You know, the question I'm 4 now having to pretend to ask again, because you keep avoiding, because you know you the answer will prove me right?
Correct again, like I've been the whole time, UNLIKE you..?
Exactly like gold. And how many transactions are people doing with gold? What kinds are they?
No, not exactly like gold.
Gold was backed up as value because it was established as rare and valuable several thousand of years ago, and it's remained equally rare.
Bitcoin has significantly increased in value because the trade it's being uses for has increased.
The first time I bought drugs with Bitcoin I had several hundreds. Then I bought them last time when they were around 1e a piece. Then despite not buying any more, it kept increasing in value so much I got several drug orders out of after spending about 115 out of it.
People noticed the huge influx in people buying Bitcoin. As traders do, they pay attention to trends. But people weren't buying it as "store of value", ducking LOL. They were buying bitcoin to easily and anonymously order drugs.
And that business is worth (this is the dozenth time I'm repeating this and you're ignoring it, coward) literally TRILLIONS.
Which is why it kept growing in value, which is it attracted investment.
But I ask you, for the UMPTEENTH TIME:
#WHAT ELSE DO YOU PURCHASE WITH BITCOIN THAN ILLEGAL THINGS?
Just like Bitcoin.
What do you purchase with chunks of gold?
But the value of gold hasn't increased exponentially, unlike Bitcoin.
Any currency needs to be somehow limited for it not suffer hyperinflation. That's just a basic necessity for anything valuable. With Fiat currency, it's artifical limiting, which makes it highly unstable, unlike the gold standard. I wouldn't be surprised if the US saw Post WWI Germany levels of inflation in the next few years, because the US is no longer on the gold standard, the US is making enemies of all and even the petro-dollar is faltering.
Literally anything.
There's not a city in the world you can't go to with a huge bag of properly stamped gold and live as merry as you want.
Your whole "gold isn't used as direct currency anymore" is a ridiculous fucking strawman, because the money represents gold, as per the gold standard. Bitcoin barely represents money, having very limited cash out points, let alone actually being backed up by anything physical.
Doesn't matter how much of a tantrum you have. Practically all transactions being done in bitcoin is illegal trade. Investing in bitcoin isn'n a transaction with bitcoin. It's just trading in bitcoin.
English isn't your native language, I take it?
The value of Bitcoin has not increased exponentially. You should look up that word.
I can roll up to the McDonalds drive-thru, ask for a quarter-pounder, and they'll accept a chunk of gold as payment?
In what way? I'm assuming you're talking about the US -- you do know that the gold-standard hasn't been used for decades there, right?
There is a fixed supply of Bitcoin. Being able to hold it in your hand or not is completely irrelevant.
Or maybe you should?
"of an increase) becoming more and more rapid"
Like with Bitcoin?
I'm aware you're unaware of how black markets work, that's probably clear for anyone getting this far into the thread, but you can use it as currency, and every single small town will have at least a single gold trader, who will "store value" for you.
In the way that countries on the gold standard, which included he US until about 50 years ago, had a system in which technically you were allowed to go any bank and demand your moneys worth in gold. Technically. But everyone doing that causes a bank run.
Which would also happen if there was some massive need about computer tech that could somehow magically trace all bitcoin transactions. And I do mean magically, because right now it trusts maths. And unless that changes, there's prolly not gonna be a bank run on bitcoin.
I've asked you what else could there be? What use can it be for people? And the only thing you came up with is "a store of value". Meaning you're investing in something that is being actively used as currency, despite you not having a single use for that currency, because the market which utilises that currency is so strong, it makes investing (ie "storing value with the expectation it's gonna grow") in a currency profitable.
Like I said from the start, the drug trade created the value which made Bitcoin a worthwhile investment. That's what created the value; a market valued in TRILLIONS.
Remember that? How the value is in the TRILLIONS? Or are you just gonna pretend all the data I showed — from fucking Europol and not some niche independent propaganda rags — doesn't exist?
"of an increase) becoming more and more rapid"
Interesting:
for
So I can roll up to the McDonalds drive-thru, ask for a quarter-pounder, and they'll accept a chunk of gold as payment?
Or do I need to exchange it first?
To be clear, I use Bitcoin for legal transactions (not exchanges) somewhat regularly. Would actually be extremely cumbersome to send boosts using gold, funny enough. Probably why people don't do it.
You can get a whore to do that for you, if you're so committed. I didn't say you can use it for literally any transaction. I said for literally anything. And I dare you you to give me gold and challenge me for a thing I can't get, if it isn't something like a sample of small pox.
Not like Bitcoin, no.
To purchase what, exactly? Or to buy and sell Bitcoin? Because unless you're illiterate, you should understand that was excluded.
Weird how you keep avoiding answering me, almost as if you were a pathetic coward in avoidance. Almost like, eh?
I've asked you what else could there be? What use can it be for people? And the only thing you came up with is "a store of value". Meaning you're investing in something that is being actively used as currency, despite you not having a single use for that currency, because the market which utilises that currency is so strong, it makes investing (ie "storing value with the expectation it's gonna grow") in a currency profitable.
Like I said from the start, the drug trade created the value which made Bitcoin a worthwhile investment. That's what created the value; a market valued in TRILLIONS.
Remember that? How the value is in the TRILLIONS? Or are you just gonna pretend all the data I showed — from fucking Europol and not some niche independent propaganda rags — doesn't exist?
Ps edit funny how you don't contravene the definition of "exponential" now that we checked it, isn't it?
So yes, you do need to exchange gold into another currency before you can use it for most transactions.
Try reading again, I just told you. Also how would you buy and sell Bitcoin using Bitcoin... what do you even think that means...?
Given how obsessed you are with being right, I'm surprised you want to just admit to being wrong:
So either you picked a colloquial definition that makes you wrong about gold, or you're wrong about it being literally exponential. Which one is it?
"What does it mean to be a currency trader"
It's just amazing how stupid you have to pretend to be in order to keep up this delusion.
You think you have a "gotcha" with the gold thing. You don't. The rarity in bitcoin isn't what created the value, and it's not what sustains it either. That's just a basic requirement for a currency; it needs to be limited.
What created and sustains Bitcoins value is the trillions of dollars in drug money it's used for. Which you can't refute. Well you can, and have, but like I say, it's delusional, I've shown you the data.
Honestly, the mental shenanigans you have to pull for this? You don't think Bitcoin grew in value, exponentially? But I'm gonna bet you won't be able to argue that either, seeing how it's definition is "“of an increase) becoming more and more rapid”"
And you don't think this qualifies?
What's your native language man?
The buying power of gold is remarkably similar to what it was 100 years ago, but I assume you didn't consider the buying power, but the numbers on the screen. It has changed, yeah, but the physical amount of gold you need is rather similar to what it was 100 years ago if you were to want to buy a house. It's like literally one of the first things kids get taught in economics in any decent basic education; how well gold maintains value and how stable it has been historically? :D The value of gold definitely has maybe doubled or quadrupled, depending on what and how you do the comparison, but it's definitely not even a dozen times what it was 100 years ago. Bitcoins value has changed by literally >20 000%. But you're gonna sit there and pretend that isn't exponential but that gold is? :DD
This is just ridiculous how you're having to do all this because you can't name a single thing you can buy with bitcoin that isn't illegal. Despite me proving all my claims and you showing literally no support for your delusional brainfarts and decrying everything as insufficient and just refusing to believe reality, despite sourced facts.
TRILLIONS, remember? TRILLIONS. Funny how you haven't addressed that a single time, isn't it?
You think currency traders... take Bitcoin... and trade it for... Bitcoin...? Why would they do that?
No more so than this:
I didn't say that. Now you're literally just making things up.
Except I did. Are you illiterate?
You haven't done that.
Such as?
I have actually, just more illiteracy on your part. Maybe try going back and sounding it all out?
No, they trade it for money? See this is what I mean. You have to pretend to be a simpleton because your ego doesn't allow you to accept reality.
I'm suffering from a slipping rib, so you're honestly making me go "my sides" because I chuckling at you.
Gold is exactly the same value it was in 1980.
Like I predicted, you think it's increased in value because the price has gone up, because you simply *look at the numbers. *
Like I said yesterday, this isn't a debate.
This is entertainment.
Another thing I've said before: you pretend like implications don't exist, because you have to, so that you can avoid the simple things which prove you wrong.
You said "I should check the definition of the word". I did, and just like I said, Bitcoin has exponentially increased in value, whereas gold has not. Do you understand the difference between "price" and "value"? They might seem similar, but they're not the same thing.
Apparently so, please, do tell me what that thing is that is worth TRILLIONS, or even just billions? No? Can't come up with a single thing, like I've said a dozen times, but can't address me having sourced that black markets are worth TRILLIONS from a creditable source like Europol. But that makes you ashamed so you have to pretend I'm not right and you're not just equivocating because you're avoiding the facts.
Ah yes, because you pretend something doesn't exist, it doesn't? Do you play and hide and seek by closing your eyes, because the others surely can't see you if you can't see them, right?
Pathological avoidance. "Yawn.
You can't even offer rationale as to your weird delusions would be correct, but still kick and scream that Europol data is wrong.
" No, it's not mainly used for the drug markets worth trillions that you've proved by Data from Europol and it isn't even relevant to your claim"
I imagine that's what you look like right now.
Uhhh.... you're lost. Let me help you out.
Me:
You:
So I said I use Bitcoin for legal transactions, gave you and example, and you asked if I used it to buy and sell Bitcoin.... Damn, you really are illiterate.
Moving goalposts. Yawn.
Again, I did. You're illiterate.
Again, such as?
I never said that. Stop making things up.
It isn't relevant to the claim which is: "Bitcoin is bad so creator is ashamed."
To recap, your argument there is: "Holding Bitcoin indirectly funds crime" -- such a boring take. I'll add it to the pile along with how I'm murdering Gazan babies and burning the planet 🥱.
Literally from the start I said that Bitcoin is propped up by illegal markets, because it is. You asked for a source, I showed you sources showing the value of drug markets which use Bitcoin are in THE TRILLIONS.
That proves my argument. You then started shifting goalposts. And every time you end up saying something silly, like "Bitcoin didn't exponentially grow in value, or if it did, so has gold", then try to prove that statement by showing data which proves you wrong. :D
It's hilarious.
"I said I'm right because me saying how I totally use Bitcoin all the time for legal transactions worth at least like, dozens of dollars, proves that Bitcoin isn't actually propped by illegal drug markets"
I never said you said anything. I implied you implied it, which you did. Or have you not been pretending like implications don't exist, but you genuinely don't understand what the word means?
I NEVER SAID THAT STOP MAKING THINGS UP :(((((((((
See how childish that sounds?
Investing in Bitcoin does fund crime. That's a simple fact proven over and over by what can easily be inferred from the fact that practically all of the transactions in Bitcoin are for drugs, monetary value, I don't give a toss if you think buying some booster packs makes even the slightest dent in the TRILLIONS that the drug markets are worth. Not to even talk about all the other crime.
You also have to pretend you said Bitcoin hasn't exponentially grown in value. It has. You claimed "if Bitcoin has, then gold has as well" and showed evidence proving you wrong.
I can't make anything as entertaining, thanks.
🥱
Oh max comment depth reached, but you're still sore for some more public humiliation? Sure, buddy.
You can't address anything you've said in the thread. I love commenting, because I can talk about the argument I made and how everything I've said has been correct, while you've been fumbling about and now have to avoid literally everything you said because you made stupid mistakes that you're ashamed to admit.
You didn't account for inflation, and just looked at the price of gold while arguing it's value has gone through "exponential" growth? This is hilarious.
You have delusions of not supporting drug cartels when you're "holding bitcoin" (meaning you've probably invested in it after it became popular due to the drug business, but if you had won some from like a esports tournament before it was popular then you wouldnt be supporting drug cartels just by holding on to it, which is why words matter.)
You've also avoided telling me what your native language is. Prolly because it prolly is English and you're just ashamed to admit how stupid you have been. :D
"exponential" indeed.
But hey, I know your ego will force you to come here with some other emoji reply. I've seen it literally thousands of times. I'll keep going as long as you want to. Becuase it's not me you're lying to. It's yourself. You simply cant accept yourself, that you were wrong, you were stupid. It happens. It's nothing to be ashamed of. You learned new things. Accept it an move on.
"Holding" =/= investing
Using =/= holding.
I've asked a few times now, what's your native language? Can't be English, can it?
"Exponential" has a meaning as well. Remember when you told me to check it, and I did, and then you still stomped your foot about how Bitcoin didn't have exponential growth in value, or if it did, then gold did as well, then you proceeded to prove yourself wrong? Remember that?
Well, that all happened after I linked you proof of how there's trillions in value being used by the drug trade. This means that if you invest in that market, it's value will grow, and the people who already have the largest market portion and are holding the most, experience the most profit. And those people, like I've proved a dozen times, are criminals.
But you can't address any of that.
🥱
Oh wee got to the point where you've just completely shut down and are just having such a tantrum you won't even inputting words, but have to spam smileys.
"Yawn", like some kid told me earlier.
"Holding" =/= investing
Using =/= holding.
I've asked a few times now, what's your native language? Can't be English, can it?
"Exponential" has a meaning as well. Remember when you told me to check it, and I did, and then you still stomped your foot about how Bitcoin didn't have exponential growth in value, or if it did, then gold did as well, then you proceeded to prove yourself wrong? Remember that?
Well, that all happened after I linked you proof of how there's trillions in value being used by the drug trade. This means that if you invest in that market, it's value will grow, and the people who already have the largest market portion and are holding the most, experience the most profit. And those people, like I've proved a dozen times, are criminals.
But you can't address any of that. You can't even say anything anymore.
Just keep shaming yourself publicly, because you can't stand behind your words, you fumble make embarrassing mistakes, prove yourself wrong with your own data. It's ridiculous.
Let's see how you're gonna continue this tantrum.
I don't think I've ever seen anyone put so much effort into shadowboxing to defend such a boring take.
🥱
Like I've said all along, you know you're wrong, and you're just unable to admit it. I've seen this tantrum literally thousands of times online.
What you should do is take the L and slink away, but you wont.
You'll keep replying out of some weird obsession, despite being very clearly wrong about a bunch of things, which I'm gonna list once more.
I proved my claim that supporting Bitcoin indirectly supports drug cartels, (with data from Europol among other sources). You couldn't accept it. You started having this tantrum, which I've been being entertained by for days.
You said Bitcoin hasn't had exponential growth, and then thought that gold did, and then linked data proving yourself wrong.
How much more can you shame yourself man? Just take the L, bow and next time don't talk about shit you don't understand the basics of. :D
🥱
Edit because max comment depth reached:
Okay, the irony of this one actually made me snort audibly.
snort
Exactly as I called it.
More pathetic avoidance, because you're still trying to "win" a debate you yourself proved yourself wrong in.
It's hilarious.
You need less physical gold today to buy a house than in 1901. Yet you cry "go look at the definition of the word 'exponential'". I genuinely can't make up stuff this hilarious. And you keep giving me more.
So, I have proved and sourced my claim and all you can do is spam immature garbage. Does it make you feel like a winner? ;>
What claim did I make that you want a source for...?
"It's used as a store of value."
No-one agrees.
The "investing" in cryptos is a tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny, but vocal internet population.
The drug trade however, is literally global and like a third of the entire world take part in it in one way or another. Usually by being the consumers of drugs or by supporting the trade indirectly.
Like we've stats that about 1% of the global population has an actual drug dependency. But if we're talking just casual use randomly,
It's right there, black-on-white, just the synthetic drug trade is in the trillions.
It doesn't matter what you think, if you use Bitcoin as a "store of value", you're indirectly supporting drug cartels because of your delusions and willfull ignorance.
Its a fact.
There it is. Yawn.
You ve literally no proof for yourself delusions about it being a "store for value", but I've showered you with europol and other statistics showing that TRILLIONS are being used in criminal enterprises.
Do you know how large a number a trillion is?
Just because there are some barely valuable pump and dump meme coins doesn't make my original assertion any lesser correct. Having a few hundred million worth is nothing compared to the TRILLIONS in drug money.
And like I said, it's inherently impossible to quantify a BLACK MARKET, so the data we have is only showing a miniscule proportion of the actual illegal trades and even the best estimates are shown to be extremely conservative.
You just can't face reality.
https://www.drugpolicyfacts.org/node/4383
Overlap that with the value of bitcoin. When was it's sharpest rise again?
Oh my. Looks like reality keeps differing with your delusions, mister "I-won't-accept-being-wrong-no-no-no"