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I take it you do not believe Israel is commiting genocide? Or are you genuinely asking in which way the USA is enabling this?
Both.
How the US is enabling it: Sending money, weapons, intellegence etc to the Israeli military. The US is actively enabling the operations of the IDF, this is obvious and I do not think that anyone claims anything different. The US denies that a genocide is being commited, but they do not deny that they greatly help the IDF.
Why the operations of the IDF is considered genocide: See: https://www.un.org/unispal/document/un-special-committee-press-release-19nov24/ or https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_genocide
Side note regarding sources and integrity of information: Do you believe that Israel is mounting a large intentional disinformation/propaganda campaign towards western countries? Or do you not believe any such thing? And do you live in the US?
The position that what Israel are doing is a genocide is the sticking point, and one that is highly contested. I don’t believe that what they’re doing is, because they’re not trying to erase an entire national or ethnic group - just Hamas.
I’m not alone in thinking this, but I’m expecting I’ll be banned for saying it with how Lemmy is.
Hamas literally outright call for the genocide of Jews and Israelis btw. Hamas NEED to be eliminated, and the only ones who disagree are people who agree with their calls for genocide.
I see that this is the common point of view for people who sympathise with Israel. I strongly disagree with you but appreciate you wanting to discuss it.
It seems you belive you have to be convinced of to things in order to change your view: A. Genocidal acts are being commited. B. The genocidal acts are being commited with genocidal intent.
A: That genocidal acts are being committed is a fact. Carefully read through the wikipedia article above (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_genocide) if you're not convinced. Do it. Read the article.
B: You seem to focus on this. i.e that the actions taken by IDF are only powered by a will to protect the security of Israel, and that there is no intent of genocide. I don't necessarily agree, but let's say you're right: Israel only does what it does out of security concerns. This does not warrant the genocidal actions commited. You can't, out of security concerns, kill 10,000 children. This should be obvious.
Please reconsider your views.
“Genocidal acts” doesn’t mean that a genocide is happening. “Destruction of civilian infrastructure” is an “act of genocide”. That happens in almost every conflict in the world, and not every one is a genocide.
A genocide is a specific thing. For me to be convinced that there is a genocide happening, specific things need to happen and with a specific intent - and those things aren’t happening in Gaza. Hamas want a genocide. They’re very open about this. Israel are trying to eliminate Hamas. If Hamas surrendered, the killing would stop.
Unfortunately in war there are casualties. Casualties will be increased when one of the parties at war - Hamas - use civilians, including kids, as “meat shields”, like putting their military bases in schools and hospitals as Hamas has been factually proven to do. Hamas have been caught faking civilian deaths and casualty numbers too, and they’re an internationally recognised terrorist organisation - they are not to be trusted, no matter what you think of Israel. Again - Hamas openly call for the genocide of Jews and Israelis. Very openly.
A question for you - if you were to agree that Israel are doing what they are doing in retaliation to what Hamas did on October 7, and will not stop until Hamas are defeated, would you still consider that a genocide? If Hamas surrendered and Israel stopped killing Palestinians, would you still say it was a genocide?
Another question - are you open to reconsidering your views? Or are you steadfast in them but expect me to consider changing mine?
I am probably just as steadfast as you, but I try to understand the views of the opposite side. You seem to do that too, given that you're discussing with me. That is appreciated.
To answer your question: Yes it is still obviously genocide even if it is in retaliation. There are many legitimate ways of retaliating against a militant group - starving an entire population is not one of them. Israel could be conducting this war in a very different way.
Then why don't they conduct the war in a very different way? Because they want to get rid of Gaza's population, I say. See this, for example (although just reports for now): https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-reportedly-developing-plan-to-resettle-1-million-gazans-in-libya/ which also points towards the US complicity in the genocide. 1 million Gazans aren't Hamas fighters. 1 million Gazans are just arabs/muslims, and that's apparantly enough reason to force them from their homeland?
Also, if a large amount of "genocidal acts" doesn't amount to genocide, then what does? Is Israel allowed to commit the most horrendous crimes as long as it is in "good faith"?
Intent matters, as does the overall goal.
Israel are trying to eliminate Hamas, the internationally recognized terrorist organisation that openly wants Jews and Israelis wiped off the face of the earth, who raped and murdered 1000+ innocent people at a music festival. That’s it. They’re not trying to wipe out the Palestinian population.
You seem to repeat the same argument over and over. I believe you know you're wrong. Israel can try to achieve this goal without making an entire area hell on earth for 2 million people. You know this. Amnesty international knows this. The UN knows this. The ICJ knows this.
Also, I want to point out a fundamental difference in our arguments.
You say:
Hamas wants to commit Genocide against the jewish people. This gives Israel the right to do whatever it takes to "take out Hamas" (whatever that means?), with however much collateral damage they want.
I say: Israel is commiting genocide against the Palestinian People. Nothing more. I do not, at all, see this as a reason for Hamas to wipe out the entirety of IDF killing however many innocent Israelis it takes. Do you understand? The many crimes of the IDF (which are facts, look up Israeli war crimes if you do not believe me) does not warrant the killing and starvation of Israeli children in the thousands.
Nor does the crimes of Hamas warrant the killing and starvation of Arab children in the thousands. Obviously.
Am I supposed to come up with new arguments every time? Israel are trying to eliminate Hamas. That’s the goal. Sorry if I keep repeating it. Maybe I’m repeating it because you refuse to acknowledge it?
No, I say that Hamas started the war and Israel are trying to finish it.
I say Israel aren’t committing a genocide because their intent is only to stop an internationally recognised terrorist organisation.
I will try to acknowledge your arguments. From my understanding, your main point is the following:
Israel is trying to eliminate Hamas and nothing else. Because Hamas is very dangerous and evil, the actions of the IDF in Gaza is justified. Is that a reasonable summary?
I disagree on many parts of that argument, as you know.
Now, why do we disagree?
It seems to me that intent matters much to you. I believe this might be where our views differ the most. I realize that assuming that Israel is acting in good faith was a flaw in my argumentation, as I do not at all believe that. I will not try to argue under that assumption any more.
Let's purely look at intent. Again, here we have a very different views. You claim (correct me if I'm wrong): Israel has no intent of doing anything but changing the power structure in Gaza in order to get rid of evil forces. Israel treats evey innocent human with the samr repsect and decency. Israel intends to let Gazans keep living in Gaza and has no plan of taking over Gaza. Israel has every intent to let Gazan infrastructure, homes, and buildings be undamaged as far as possible. Israel wants to make life as good as possible for Gazans, and has no intention to make it unneccsary difficult. Israel does not want the population of Gaza to be displaced to another country. Israel would avoid killing innocent Arabs to the same extent as they would avoid killing innocent Jews. So far correct?
I claim the exact opposite, more or less. I believe that the evidence of what is happening in Gaza strongly indicates that I am correct.
To convince me that Israel is acting in good faith, you have to provide arguments for that. A statement from Israel is not an argument at all.
I hope I haven't misrepresented your standpoints too much.
Yes, intent matters. Hamas, the internationally recognised terrorist organisation, committed terrorist act atrocities against Israelis and started this war. Israel rightfully will not stop until Hamas are not only removed from power in Gaza, but completely eliminated. That’s the “good faith” that Israel are acting in. If they just wanted to commit genocide they would have razed the whole place long ago.
That’s really all that needs to be pointed out - if they wanted to kill them all, they would have long ago. They have the means and opportunity to do so. They haven’t and they aren’t. Why do you think they’d draw it out while facing all this backlash? They’d just wipe them from the face of the earth and go “yeh we did it, what are you gonna do about it?”.
Again zero factual arguments to support your/their claims. You have just chosen to blindly believe, it seems.
You have zero factual arguments to support your claim lol.
Israel’s leaders are on record many, many times saying that the end game is Hamas to be eliminated. You choose not to believe them because you want there to be a genocide happening so you can be outraged about it.
Again - if a genocide was on the menu, this war would have been over months ago because Gaza would be a crater and everyone in there would be dead. Israel clearly don’t care about people saying they’re committing a genocide when they’re not, so if they did want to they’d just do it.
Bro read my comments, the factual evidence is there right in front of you. If you refuse to click the links I provide and read my arguments, that's on you.
And yes, I do not trust Israeli leaders words, I only trust their actions. You cannot convince me to trust their words by saying that I should. Factual evidence (social media bots, fake hamas websites, other lies, see: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misinformation_in_the_Gaza_war, etc) strongly support the claim that Israel utilities lies and deception frequently, and I thus do not consider them trustworthy.
Facts don't care about your feelings or blind beliefs.
That Israel has the firepower to completely obliterate Gaza in two days does not mean that anything less than that is fine.
The irony of you saying this is hilarious.
You aren't saying facts, you're saying opinions - most of which are "i think x, y, z" and "i don't believe x when they say y".
You missed the point. If Israel want to commit genocide against Palestinians, and don't care about the world accusing them of genocide, they would just do it. Why would they draw it out for months/years? If they're going to have everyone sanctioning them and shouting "Genocide!" at them, they'd just get it over and done with and move on. Drawing it out over months/years would just make it worse for them. It makes no sense.
You want it to be a genocide. You're looking for articles that support your view. You're looking for "facts" that support your view. You're not looking at it with an impartial eye and what is actually happening, you're looking at it with a "they're committing genocide so everything they do is with an end goal of genocide" lens.
This has been the least worthwhile discussion I've had in a long time, and I discuss with people I disagree with fairly often (including those who support Israel). Most of them manage to change my view somewhat, or at least provide a new perspective. You didn't, sadly.
(However I very much appreciate you wanting to discuss, even though the discussion quality could be improved significantly)