579
Russians Are Strangely Stumped About Why Moscow Is Getting Bombed
(www.thedailybeast.com)
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 28 Aug 2023
579 points (97.7% liked)
News
23311 readers
3626 users here now
Welcome to the News community!
Rules:
1. Be civil
Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.
2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.
Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.
3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.
Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.
4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.
Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.
5. Only recent news is allowed.
Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.
6. All posts must be news articles.
No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.
7. No duplicate posts.
If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.
8. Misinformation is prohibited.
Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.
9. No link shorteners.
The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.
10. Don't copy entire article in your post body
For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
It's kinda sad how misinformed many Russians are about what their state is up in Ukraine, and act like Ukraine has no right to fight back
Most of us just afraid. There're more and more cases of prosecuting people for "discrediting Russian army", for refusing to be conscripted and so on.
Fear of going to prison is almost in genes, due to the loong history of being heavily oppressed by own government.
Is it better to lose life, freedom and loved ones in the pursuit of an unjust war in Ukraine that will provoke further violence at home? Or, is it better to direct violence at home against the ones who would send you or your loved ones to be killed fighting the Ukrainian people who themselves are just trying to defend their loved ones and their homes?
If you are too afraid and unwilling to fight back against the architects of your current torment, are you not already imprisoned?
That's a lofty sophism. There's a huge difference between some philosophical imprisonment and a real one.
You are right. That's fair.
You know, as an American, I have difficulty trying to figure out how to react and resist against my country's imperialistic endeavors, among other things. Many other things. I think our police probably share more qualities with yours than they have differences, as one for instance.
But, I think that, again, when family and friends, neighbors and loved ones are being conscripted in a draft and killed in a war that isn't even a matter of self-defense, but that is also inviting retaliation closer to home that philosophy becomes much less lofty. Much more practical.
When you are being forced into seriously unjust actions that invite current harm AND future harm, that calculus seems much easier to figure out. When there is already harm being directed at you by your government, the path of less harm might just be taking direct action to solve that source of all the attendant problems.
I sincerely hope the Russian people can find a way to limit the harms their government is targeting them with. And, that they find a way to prosper and contribute and enjoy both the fruits of their labor AND their renewed place in a world that can similarly find itself on a better track. Because, honestly, humanity as whole is a fucking mess and we all need each other right now and going forward.
Secret of passivity of an average Russian is in eternal "maybe" in our heads: maybe government won't notice me, maybe I will be spared, maybe a situation will fix itself somehow. We even have special term for it: "авось".
It's all learned helplessness.
As for me personally - I have decided that if they will try to conscript me then I will try to flee or go to prison rather than actively participate in that war.
I'm sorry to hear it's like that, and sad to report it's getting that way here, more and more; though we don't have a word for it, yet.
You sound like a good person. Glad to have chatted. Best luck.
So it looks like you think "maybe" it is not going to affect you, and you are only willing to do anything once it does. I think that is in general how everyone there thinks. "Maybe it won't affect me" but by the time it does it is already too late to react. If you want to flee, do it now. Don't wait for the "maybe". Because if you do, it will be too late to react.
Over 100,000 dead Russian soldiers paid with their lives. What did that accomplish?
Amazing how the wagnerites drove 3/4 the way to Moscow and then gave up. They can't even coup, when they hold all the cards.
Plus, most Russians are fucking FOR the war.
I don't know. Why are you asking me?
I don't know where you take that one from. It's not like we can have independent polls here in Russia and people a certainly don't feel safe to answer honestly.
I, of course, only have anecdotes, but very few people I know support war.
It's very sad. They are locked into informational echo chambers that only repeat the words of state media and anyone repeating anything else gets arrested or a 'visit'. The only ones who know how to bypass this are mostly younger tech savvy Russians with VPNs etc who care enough.
Arrests and visits are not that widespread yet. Problems are atomization of society and lack of trust, that doesn't help organizing for literally anything too. Someone in higher comment remembered the long and hardly broken by 90s history of opression, but there's an old anecdote: 'If Stalin is such a monster, who sniched on others millions of times?'. If you don't vet a person\company before dropping heavy topics and opinions, they can tell on you just out of spite. On a local, small people level, folks aren't found out by secret services, they are snitched on. A girl painted a pro-peace picture and teacher called a police, resulting in her father imprisoned and her put into shelter. Some guy overheard a couple talking in a cafe and boyfriend was pressed face-to-floor before they had a chance to leave. Some college students snitched on a classmate just for lulz to FSB and she got a prison sentence out of blue, she was 19. It's despicable, but these facts aren't systemic oppression, but rather ugly POSes having a new leverage over others. When Zs are plastered everywhere, you aren't really sure who'd hear you at all times.
Telegram is very widespread and not blocked (while most VPNs are). Many under 45 follow the situation there, see videos and news. They just don't know what to do with that, to fully comprehend what's going on themselves and see their role in it, and totally unlikely to talk about it publicly. It's going back to close kitchen talks of later USSR. Everyone understands everything, but mantra comes to mind. Not many take a hard stance now, but try to put together a Frankenstein's creature of conflicting thoughts\bits of information to somehow explain the situation (like the viral beheading done by Wagner), or isolate themselves from it altogether to keep moving. Only to then get very surprised, when this thrown away and long forgotten puzzle suddenly blows up under their bed.
A very weird place to observe.
I mean genuinely it's the chapter in 1984 where his idiot buddies kid snitched him out to Big Brother. It's a human personality trait, and one that's always there.
That's the brave new world: everyone and everything has a digital trace now and therefore is transparent to oppressive government. A world of a dream for a dictator.
Yes, it is. But you too, are in a bubble, if you think this petty vandalism is "fighting back"
It's not about doing damage. It's about reminding Russians that the only reason civilians aren't dying in Moscow is because Ukraine chooses not to stoop to Russia's level.
Okay, that sounds reasonable. But if that's the case, why don't they blow up something of strategic value? I'm sure there are some military factories around Moscow that they could blow up overnight without causing any civilian harm. That'd honestly be quite badass.
But to me it sounds like they don't actually have the capacity to do so. No drone has an ability to reach from Kiyv to Moscow, so those attacks are likely done by local partisans who jerry rigged off the shelf drones with diy explosives. Those wont be able to do any serious damage other than making flashy headlines.
They did. That happened. Just a few weeks ago.
source link: https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/09/europe/moscow-industrial-plant-blast-intl/index.html
second source: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/09/huge-explosion-firework-factory-sergiev-posad-near-moscow
It's not yet clear whether this was of Ukrainian doing or just coincidence. If they can blow one they can certainly blow a few more. If it's actually them and they keep at it, It'll definitely change my position on this whole situation I'll even edit all of my comments to say how wrong I was.
I am completely stumped at what the hell your point even is. There is no such thing as "petty vandalism" in a war, and flashy headlines can be a powerful tool as well.
Look, imagine I'm a bad guy and I beat you up. And what you did in revenge is you shat on my doorstep. You're not fighting back. I'd be happy for you if you did, but you're just a shitter, not a hero that you think you are.
What good does a headline make? Sure, someone might read this and say "That fucker @drathvedro totally deserved this" and continue on, maybe send you some weapons as a gift. But you know what happens after that - I'm coming to you and I'm beating your ass again.
The point, that I've been repeatedly telling around here, is that Ukraine is incapable of fighting back. Not with HIMARS, not with F-16, not with whatever. They simply lack the headcount to do so. If you really care about Ukraine, join in and fight for them. Or fuck off. Otherwise, you're just standing there like an asshole cheering for the weak one to be beaten, to the point that they actually believe that they stand a chance. They don't.