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Democrats are leftists. -.-
It's a spectrum. Left to right. There's a lot of groups along that spectrum. "Leftist" is the broadest, most general possible term to use to refer to various people among left leaning idealogies.
You, Internet stranger, as an individual, are not representative of anything other than your clear intent to misunderstand everything I try to communicate to you.
Hard disagree. Anecdotal evidence is the terminology we use to describe trends we personally see. It's colored by your perception, obviously, which is why you shouldn't give it the same weight as actual data, but you can absolutely use it to inform your own opinions (which should also be influenced be real factual evidence/data). To write it off completely is pretty silly, IMO.
I don't disagree with some of the sentiment you share, and I absolutely agree that Democrat leadership has been failing Americans for a long long time, on many issues, but you're not going to convince me that a bunch of left leaning people abstaining to vote wasn't them not being able to see the forest through the trees. Obviously genocide is bad, but it's worse now that we have an authoritarian in charge who not only wants to support the genocide, but wants to get in on it, maybe open a new resort location after they clear out all the rubble and bodies.
I feel like I'm trying to explain something that's very obvious, at least to me, and getting nowhere. I guess just keep ignoring the consequences of not voting against a wannabe dictator. Some people can't be helped.
Democrats want to take back the means of production under the control of labor? Exactly what do you think "left" means? No, Democrats (or at least those running the party) are not left. Everything they do, even the positive stuff, gets structured to serve capital.
Yes it is. Democrats are on the right side of that spectrum. Democratic voters are at least shifting, but most are still right of center. Sure, they hide behind Republicans on a national level, but there are plenty of places where they dominate local politics, and they always put wealth and capital first. No left party would fund schools with property taxes for instance.
Not at all, you are just not doing a great job of recognizing that we have different frames of reference. Pretty common in Internet discourse.
I know what you meant. The plural of anecdote isn't "data". Colored by our own perception or not, that is not evidence. This shit gets hauled out every single election, and when the analysis is actually done, it never turns out to be accurate. Of course that doesn't keep the neoliberals from hauling it out again half a microsecond after they lose an election.
What is a "bunch" though, and why pin it specially on the "left"? People politically engaged enough to call themselves leftists don't generally skip out on voting, no matter what a few noisy voices say, or what your vibe-based analysis tells you.
Turnout in 2024 was not exceptionally low. In fact, it was a little higher than average. 2020 was the exception with record turnout because of Covid and Trump being fresh in voters minds. Four years later the drama got boring and normies checked out. Democrats counted on Trump to inspire their voters, and lightning didn't strike twice. Kamala lost because she was boring and Trump was interesting. I think she deserved to lose for a lot of other reasons, but that's the one that mattered.
Ah, but here's the thing. I'm on the left and consequentially, I did vote for Harris. I tried to convince others to do the same. Not by berating them like I'm guessing you did, but in ways that might have worked. I also tried to stop the vote scolds from putting their egos ahead of effective advocacy, but I'm pretty sure they were all as stubborn as you.
You accuse me of misinterpreting what you say, and here you are twisting my words. I never once said anything to indicate that not voting is fine or inconsequential. My point is that being "left" isn't what drives it. Where evidence exists, it tells the opposite story. Making it a "left" problem is a Democratic establishment strategy to undermine the kinds of reforms that might get those normies attention.
Yeah, you're still misunderstanding everything and arguing semantics. Sure US democrats are right of center relative to EU politics, but we're talking about US politics, so one would assume we would operate off of the Overton window in US politics as our frame of reference. But nah, whatever "wins" the argument I guess. I'm done talking to you. Bye bye.
You claimed that people on "the left" didn't vote for Harris. There is no possible interpretation of that assertion without determining who "the left" is. The is a semantic argument at it's core. I too hate arguing semantics, but they are important. I will again point out that you just straw-manned me as choosing to ignore the consequences of not voting. My entire point was to defend the left against your charge. Why would I care to do that if I didn't agree it was a bad thing to do? You accusing me of (I assume intentionally) misunderstanding you really looks projection.
That is not what I said. I did not reference the EU at all. You seem to think that left to right being a spectrum means that it's an entirely relative distinction. It isn't. Anyways, in the common rhetoric, when Democrats accuse the left of being disloyal to the party, they are not talking about the ideological breadth of the Democratic party, they mean the part of the party that's further left than the rest of the party. I believe you when you say that you did not intend to say the same, but you have to realize that you can't just ignore the political context in which you use words like that. Intentional or not, you joined the chorus of establishment Democratic voices using those same words.
It's not really a matter of the overton window, though I can see why I could have made that more clear. I think I just cleared that up above. To state it again simply, the words you used are being used by the Democratic establishment, and they are not talking about anyone left of the fascists. They are talking about the "Bernie wing", and they make that clear.
How unsurprising.
👍
It's kind of pathetic of me, but coming to lemmy I had this idea that maybe it would be like reddit of old, before it went to shit. It was foolish of me to think I could still find quality human beings on the Internet.
That type of discourse will follow you if you're the one generating it. I'm not willing to have a conversation with someone that wants to twist everything I say and argue incessantly about which definition of a word, or which frame of reference we should use. You have no intellectual integrity. Now leave me alone please.
The terms we are using "left", "progressive", etc are full of ambiguity that can easily be mistaken for intentional "twisting" of what someone is saying. I don't know how to deal with that without addressing those definitions. If you have any suggestions, I'd be happy to consider them. Also, if you want to be left alone, you are under no obligation to respond. Making statements then instructing someone to not respond is pretty shitty behavior, even if you say "please".