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I know ill get downvoted for this anecdotal comment but I dont know a single person who is against vaccination. At the same time I do know a couple people who are against making it mandatory despite themselves being vaccinated. Just a viewpoint I never see discussed on this topic because the talking point always seems to be either you are pro vaccines or against vaccines. I also admit I dont have any social media platforms, dont pay for cable or streaming services, and dont have kids. So my anecdotal input is based of the people I directly know and are in contact with regularly so take it with a grain of salt.
I would fire back at you and say that I do not count among friends, anybody who thinks in an antivax mindset.
But that doesn't mean I haven't met them every single day for years.
I've had Uber drivers tell me there are microchips in vaccines.
Literally last week a thrift store worker was making snide comments to myself and other customers, suggesting we should have masks because she has an autoimmune disorder. She was not wearing a mask. I tried to explain to her that's not how any of it works, and she said oh yes, I've read about it. I ended the conversation abruptly when I said that I almost married a doctor and you might want to actually go speak to one yourself.
They're everywhere.
Anecdotally, I know many people who are anti-vax (mostly family). When I went to college, I found out my parents didn't get me a lot of the vaccines I was supposed to have, so had to get a bunch of vaccines before starting.
Would you say you have a stronger opinion towards vaccinations having made the decision yourself? As opposed to a hypothetical reality where you still dont remember getting the vaccinations but found out your parents did vaccinate you, would you still hold it in as high of regard as you do now? I think one of my relatives tried explaining it like leading a horse to water but not being able to make it drink.
Before cops started installing plate readers, people could drive without a license all the time as long as they weren't pulled over. Despite there always existing legislation in every star that made it maditory to get a license in order to drive. Its not manditory for ever citizen to posses a photo id but they have made it a requirement for people to have an id if they choose to buy beer or cigs or spray paint or lighters or whipped cream etc. The result has been every person I know having some form of photo id while cops had to spend millions more installing plate reader to have the ability to enforce the law that every driver must have a valid license.
The generalized argument im relaying isnt that they dont want to be forced to get vaccines, their argument is that forcing people to do anything is an extremely ineffective means for getting conformity when there are more tried and proven means to accomplish better results without adding more legislative bandaids.
I also admit if this discussion was happening 10-15 years ago I dont think I would even be relaying these opinions because I did know antivaxers back then and all the way up to the pandemic. But once people realized the path for least resistance went thru the nurse administering covid vaccines in order to resume daily activities i can honestly say I haven't heard of a single person still clutching to their antivax convictions.
That's definitely a weird point of view imo. Sees the value of vaccines, ignores that they work best with high vaccination rates.
How do people keep finding that conclusion??? Did you miss the part where I said theyre all vaccinated? The argument is that governments have banned and mandated shit since the beginning of time with almost zero success. Its the Streisand effect, I think if im using that correctly. The surgeon general for every country of every modern generation has preached for people to quit smoking with little to no affect. What did work, tho? Making it so expensive and inconvenient to smoke that its a natural no brainer to quit. These arent people arguing that smoking is healthy, these were people aware of the risks, who were also all addicted to nicotine, who also, almost unanimously, decided to quit smoking in less than 5 years from the price of cigs going up and smoking in public restricted to designated areas.
The same thing happened with covid vaccines. I saw trumper after trumper proclaim they'll never get a covid vaccine circa 2020ish. That same fuckin year they started making events require people to show their vaccine card in order to attend events of all sizes. You dont tell people they have to do something, you make it a requirement for them to participate in activities they normally would participate in. Swear to god for every Bills fan I knew preaching they'd never get a vaccine before the NFL required you to show proof of vaccine to attend games, by the time the season opener came around, every single person was vaccinated.
I just said it's weird and it certainly is.
Also you seem touchy and kind of illogical about this period. "You don't tell people they have to do something" then you prove that telling people that they had to do it 100% worked.
I cant help that you are omitting all the key points of the discussion I opened up.
First being the freedom to make the decision themselves. I, for example, am one of the few who took the cig price hike as a cost of my freedom to pursue happiness. So I still smoke. 15 years ago if I was out of smokes I could ask any number of people to bum a smoke and would always find someone with a smoke. Now if I run out, im out till I get to a store to buy more.
The second point you are omitting for convenience is the freedom of choice combined with the effectiveness it has when people make a decision on their own accord. How well did prohibition work? How well has mandating age verification for porn worked out? How well did keeping marijuana classified as a schedule 3 narcotic worked?
Giving people the ability to make their own decisions while stacking the deck against the undesired option creates a path of least resistance for people to willingly choose the desired option creating a naturally less combative response.
Think of it this way, the DNC thought they were making the best decision for their chances at the oval office by actively derailing Bernie Sanders' nomination campaign amd forcing Hillary in the role. The results were a divided party of democratic voters and Trump's initial presidency.
Ironically though, exactly what you're saying is the right way to treat vaccines is how they have been treated. Lol
Want to send your kids to school? Vaccinate them. Or home school them, your choice. Kinda funny that you wrote all these paragraphs getting all worked up about this when at the end of it all, the precise thing you seem to want is already a reality. No one was ever forced to be vaccinated unless they made a choice that required it.
You're working way too hard to defend your "friend's" weird attitude on vaccines. Just either let it go or acknowledge that there is at least some contradiction of beliefs there.
So why am I only left with accepting the two options you are giving me when I've explained you can fully support and trust vaccines while also not supporting or trusting your government's ability to always mandate or ban things that would create new precedence which are the duct tape holding this 250 year old governing framework still together.
Trump mandates vaccines in his 1st term of an alternate reality. Biden wins. Trump part deux takes office after Biden, appoints a random crackhead who hunts bears deep in the thickets of Bronx and Queens. Now this mother fucker has legislative precedence to pass medical mandates.
This country is built on our government getting their foot in the door under a veil of good intentions but always ends up evicting and squatting in whatever door they had their foot in. What's the longest streak youve ever seen of any political party holding subsequent terms in office and congressional control to where you are comfortable saying you do not fear it getting all fucked up the first chance Republicans get at fucking it up.
Anyone who says they were aware of the power the patriot act was giving to our government is a bold face liar. That shit passed all the way unilaterally without so much as a peep (I think iirc I dont think it was an executive order but ill have to look it up).
Last example is to ask how many democratic politicians who applauded the ACA forgot to mention that they allowed clauses that would allow states to decide if they want to drop coverage for citizens whenever congress decides to reduce its Medicaid funding? Did they all assume it'd never happen? Am I supposed trust every proposed legislation at face value and trust that no proposed legislation will ever have hidden clauses? (that isnt meant to come accross as implying I disagree with ACA, im type 1 diabetic who relies on it but cant think of a way to word this so it sounds more supportive without this added context)
Edit: do you not see the Streisand effect in real time? Each argument either of us provide isnt getting the other person any closer to conceding and if anything is causing me to get more and more defensive of opinions i basically started by relaying from hearsay after being curious but have now gotten to the point where I sound like im full on defending my own personal stake in this discussion like their my own opinions.
That's not what the Streisand effect is and I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You're just bringing up shit that has no relationship whatsoever with this topic, not even if I choose to try and salvage the botched analogies you're looking to make.
You sure as hell aren't gonna convince me that a vague feeling of government bad somehow sensibly overrides a scientific understanding of how vaccines work. Put simply it's obviously a lack of scientific understanding combined with selfishness. That's all it ever could be, just like every other libertarian kind of worldview.
Would be best not to continue this exchange. I prefer not to block people.
Really, thats not what the Streisand effect means? So you cant make the leap from a definition specific to withholding information causing the opposite effects than what was originally intended to my use of the Streisand effect as a psychological reactance metaphor for how people respond to finding out they are having options withheld from them in place of information? Shit I admit I called out your shitty reading comprehension as a response to you calling me deranged before I even saw this comment. But fuck me this comment im replying to really puts your reading comprehension bug front and center and calls it a feature🤣
I mean for fucks sake you are still held on to my opinion being that im anti vax. So I guess you won. Ill throw in the towel cuz I cant put any more effort into explaining something to a person who admittedly isnt willing to put any effort into understanding what is even being discussed and refuses to engage in any way that isnt an insult followed by an admittance of not putting any effort into reading anything their provided with.
Not reading this drivel either. I'm guessing you get blocked here a lot.
Almost nothing you wrote is of any relevance. It does seem written derangedly honestly. Your first and second points are identical as just one example.
Ive also.never looked at a comment's username so I didnt know every reply was yours. Again, my b.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity
Sacrificing the "freedom" (as some like to call it, I say selfishness) to not get a little boo boo from a needle and having the sniffles for 6 hours keeps everyone in society safe from horrible fucked up diseases, including those who legit can't get vaccines because of weakened or deficient immune systems.
The reason many of these diseases seem like a myth or "just the flu bro" to antivax morons is because of herd immunity and society spending decades eradicating these diseases so no one has to experience them.
The vaccines are not going to harm the vast majority of people, and will instead help millions have increased quality of life. There is no reason for them to not be mandatory.
So, these people are vaccinated, get their kids vaccinated, but don't want it to be mandatory for other kids parents are too stupid to get them vaccinated and put the life of their own kids in danger. Basically, they are too selfish to care about other kids than their own.
So Ive already been asked this in this thread if you care to read my other replies. Or just lmk if you have but didnt see where this was addressed and ill find it to give you a tldr.
I'll ride the ship down with you...
Lemmy likes to be an echo chamber for "America Bad".
I don't know a single person that actually is anti-vax, I know some who think you should be allowed to choose (aka freedom).
But that would require nuance, and the average lemming chooses not to have that.
America is bad for many legitimate reasons. Yes some people on here are assholes about it but very few of them came to the conclusion that America is shit for the wrong reasons.
Ok so this feels like justification for my experiences on lemmy arent exclusive to me and are actually evident to users other than me; in regards to how different my experiences on lemmy discussing most shit are compared to discussing shit with people in real life are?
Im not talking shit, its just something Ive noticed for a while and have put a ton of thought into. I mean Im fully aware this js very niche platform that appeals to anyone knowledgeable enough to program an application's interface. While at the same time is very unappealing for everyone else in the world who hears API and their first thought is about one single private investigator.
Its been fascinating to observe as someone close to 40y/o who never sent or rcvd an email outside of schools/college homework until I was in my early 30s and got my first job as a desk jockey.
That domino fell, then buying a PC fell, followed by building a PC falling which happened a cunt hair before the current AMD sockets hit the market, which obviously forced my hand to immediately build my second PC in the same calender year, and all the remaining dominos fell that were standing between me being the last person to give up their flip phone and me consumed with learning everything there is to know about anything remotely related to technology.
So for me Lemmy has been my introduction to the same industry sized community all the computer nerds have buried their heads in their whole life. Which makes everything all the more interesting to me cuz I get to simultaneasly experience a very intimate sized community evolve while also being able to people watch 40,000 users interact almost daily and feel like im peering thru the looking glass observing it all feeling almost like an outsider or alien observing an isolated environment.
I feel like there are so many people here who have grown up surrounded by IT focused friends and groups that they dont even really notice how like minded a gathering of people with shared interests, shared industry employment, and shared educational fields actually are.
Totally not bitching about hivemind this or that but I've jumped industries enough to know the saying birds of a feather flock together is wild for how accurate it is.
I love everything about Lemmy but it does concern me how contagious sentiments can be here. Like I came following the reddit api scandal when shit was all bright eyed and bushy tailed. Then I started noticing it like a slow landslide consuming everything accross communities & instances, this unsettling mentality that everything sucks, the world is doomed, anyone who finds the silver lining in something is just wrong and/or stupid/nieve. Its not everyone obviously but its fuckin consuming and wildly contagious.
Again anecdotal to me but... as someone whose only source of news is lemmy, hasn't had any social media accounts in over a decade, and has every other social interaction with other humans in person, in real life, in real time, with friends family buissness relations from accross all walks of life, tax brackets, industries from living everywhere from rural bum fuck nowhere to every block of my beautiful queen city Metropolitan neighborhoods... I feel like my adhd tendencies havedriven allowed me a clarity most people don't have for avoiding getting consumed by the herd.
This being one of those exact situations and the first time anyone else has brought it up. I prefaced my comment saying im aware my input will be unpopular and I prefaced my comment in hopes the discussion wouldn't get twisted into the only 2 black and white options discussed on the topic of vaccines. Either you want everyone to live or you are actively trying to kill everyone. I even gave real world examples that are unanimously regarded as being hugely successful as to why I understand where the unpopular penguin people are coming from. Those being the massively reduced number of nicotine addicted cig smokers and drastically increasing covid vaccinations in my area. Both without legislative mandates or prohibition. Taking every precaution to preserve the purpose of opening discussions by providing a preface that specifies the comment is anecdotal and that the people who hold these opinions are also ALL VACCINATED. Maybe I should've made it a bolder font or something cuz every other comment responding to mine is focused on not understanding how someone can decide to be willing to kill everyone, or about how they can justify hating america because they got there thru all the correct reasons.
The only complaint i have on this topic tho, is that I know there are users who agree with some of the shit I spew by means of the up and down votes but, and im only assuming, they vote without commenting because every comment that 100% conforms with Lemmy's unified opinion gets all upvotes, no downvotes creating an atmosphere that makes it so difficult to discuss topics that might have the name Musk, or Trump, or Windows 11, or sports, or billionaires. -last tangent i swear- im sorry but I will die on the hill that Warren Buffet is a goddamn hero amongst men. I agree fuck the rest of the lot but dont shit on the only billionaire who has put money where his mouth is by using every cent he has every used towards political lobbying, or charitable contributions in support of raising taxes for the rich, strengthening resources for women and underprivileged groups, improving education, plus a list of other programs lemmy is in full support of. Plus he made every penny he is worth by investing according the operating integrity of a company and the current valuation of said company. He has been autisticly cool since before autism was being diagnosed.
Tldr: I wish more users discussed more topics in ways that are less black and white. There are no karma points, you wont lose a nut for discussing something you prolly will get ignored for or at worst downvoted over.
Yes you are:-). And it's valid, and worse than that, most of Lemmy is an outright echo chamber, where mods often remove viewpoints that contrast with their own. Some corners of Lemmy even seem like outright founts of disinformation.
The left eats its own. Moral purity beatings will continue until morale improves. Meh, it's social media, which devolves into a race to the lowest common denominator. It is far easier to give easy answers claiming to already be correct than to e.g. admit that we do not know everything (or even something) - far easier to chime in and speak rather than listen first before forming a firm opinion, to many sources and many sides. All I can add here is that (1) beware of unearned knowledge, and (2) those who seek the Truth, REALLY, will manage to find it. Almost certainly not on Lemmy though, for these aforementioned reasons 🤪 - this is "social media", a place for people to vomit up their emotions among like-minded individuals in order to circle-jerk one another off, but people may want to get their actual "news" elsewhere (sadly, even Reddit does a far better job of this, bc that is where people post primary content and if you want to know something, then you must go to where the content is - the network effect is strong, but real).
There were four responses here. Your replies to them, especially this one, are an extreme overreaction. What I wrote was "huh seems odd" then you flip out. Your two responses both have the attitude of someone who was attacked mercilessly for expressing something entirely logical. Neither of which are true.
Wow that is adding so much conjecture of my reply's "attitude" lol. Ill re-read what i wrote in this thread but my intentions were to have an open discussion about mandating vaccines without the focus for not supporting mandating vaccines equal to being anti-vax. When 3 out of the 4 replies all avoided the discussion to focus on anti mandating being synonymous with antivax I wanted to adding as much context i could to bring it back to my initial anecdotal discussion. As for replying to the other person who shared a similar desire to go down with my sinking ship I just went with it and shared my experiences so far on lemmy as an outsider.
I did not intend to be abrasive in anything I wrote so I apologize but I will insist this was not intended to be taken as a "flip out" and certainly not with an "attitude of someone who was attacked mercilessly for expressing something entirely logical. Neither of which are true."
Instead I give you an option 3, which is: Wicked bad adhd medicated with adderall and a pleasure found in written discussion being the only way I've found to truly layout rapid firing thought fragments that never slow never stop never rest into any logical form of a complete thought or argument or discussion.
Im not saying the written thought processes are universally regarded by all as being a logically formed complete thoughts by all. Im just saying compared to my normal thought workflow (with or without the adderall) I can sit in a holding cell for 3 days when they lost my inmate number after getting arrested for driving without a license so I sat there on a bench in a closet sized room for 3 days without any insulin muchless adderall, staring at a wall having a never ending discussion in my head but only can remember or retain whatever the dialoge in my head is saying at that moment but no memory of the previous thought processes that just occur3d or any ability to know where the thought processes are going because if I start thinking about where the thought processes are going then that is the new current thought and I lose any previous thoughts being had but when I try to remember them it replaces the thoughts I was having trying to figure out where I was going with.......
Best way to visualize severe adult adhd is by picturing my thoughts like THIS IS THE SONG THAT NEVER ENDS IT JUST KEEPS GOING ON AND ON MY FRIENDS SOME PEOPLE, STARTED SINGING IT NOT KNOWING WHAT IT WAS AMD THEYLL CONTINUE SINGING IT BECAUSE THIS IS THE SONG THAT NEVER ENDS IT JUST KEEPS GOING ON AND ON MY FRIENDS SOME PEOPLE, STARTED SINGING IT NOT KNOWING WHAT IT WAS AMD THEYLL CONTINUE SINGING IT BECAUSE THIS IS THE SONG THAT NEVER ENDS IT JUST KEEPS GOING ON AND ON MY FRIENDS SOME PEOPLE, STARTED SINGING IT NOT KNOWING WHAT IT WAS AMD THEYLL CONTINUE SINGING IT BECAUSE THIS IS THE SONG THAT NEVER ENDS IT JUST KEEPS GOING ON AND ON MY FRIENDS SOME PEOPLE, STARTED SINGING IT NOT KNOWING WHAT IT WAS AMD THEYLL CONTINUE SINGING IT BECAUSE THIS IS THE SONG THAT NEVER ENDS IT JUST KEEPS GOING ON AND ON MY FRIENDS SOME PEOPLE, STARTED SINGING IT NOT KNOWING WHAT IT WAS AMD THEYLL CONTINUE SINGING IT BECAUSE THIS IS THE SONG THAT NEVER ENDS IT JUST KEEPS GOING ON AND ON MY FRIENDS SOME PEOPLE, STARTED SINGING IT NOT KNOWING WHAT IT WAS AMD THEYLL CONTINUE SINGING IT BECAUSE THIS IS THE SONG THAT NEVER ENDS IT JUST KEEPS GOING ON AND ON MY FRIENDS SOME PEOPLE, STARTED SINGING IT NOT KNOWING WHAT IT WAS AMD THEYLL CONTINUE SINGING IT BECAUSE THIS IS THE SONG THAT NEVER ENDS IT JUST KEEPS GOING ON AND ON MY FRIENDS SOME PEOPLE, STARTED SINGING IT NOT KNOWING WHAT IT WAS AMD THEYLL CONTINUE SINGING IT BECAUSE THIS IS THE SONG THAT NEVER ENDS IT JUST KEEPS GOING ON AND ON MY FRIENDS SOME PEOPLE, STARTED SINGING IT NOT KNOWING WHAT IT WAS AMD THEYLL CONTINUE SINGING IT BECAUSE THIS IS THE SONG THAT NEVER ENDS IT JUST KEEPS GOING ON AND ON MY FRIENDS SOME PEOPLE, STARTED SINGING IT NOT KNOWING WHAT IT WAS AMD THEYLL CONTINUE SINGING IT BECAUSE THIS IS THE SONG THAT NEVER ENDS IT JUST KEEPS GOING ON AND ON MY FRIENDS SOME PEOPLE, STARTED SINGING IT NOT KNOWING WHAT IT WAS AMD THEYLL CONTINUE SINGING IT BECAUSE THIS IS THE SONG THAT NEVER ENDS IT JUST KEEPS GOING ON AND ON MY FRIENDS SOME PEOPLE, STARTED SINGING IT NOT KNOWING WHAT IT WAS AMD THEYLL CONTINUE SINGING IT BECAUSE THIS IS THE SONG THAT NEVER ENDS IT JUST KEEPS GOING ON AND ON MY FRIENDS SOME PEOPLE, STARTED SINGING IT NOT KNOWING WHAT IT WAS AMD THEYLL CONTINUE SINGING IT BECAUSE THIS IS THE SONG THAT NEVER ENDS IT JUST KEEPS GOING ON AND ON MY FRIENDS SOME PEOPLE, STARTED SINGING IT NOT KNOWING WHAT IT WAS AMD THEYLL CONTINUE SINGING IT BECAUSE THIS IS THE SONG THAT NEVER ENDS IT JUST KEEPS GOING ON AND ON MY FRIENDS SOME PEOPLE, STARTED SINGING IT NOT KNOWING WHAT IT WAS AMD THEYLL CONTINUE SINGING IT BECAUSE THIS IS THE SONG THAT NEVER ENDS IT JUST KEEPS GOING ON AND ON MY FRIENDS SOME PEOPLE, STARTED SINGING IT NOT KNOWING WHAT IT WAS AMD THEYLL CONTINUE SINGING IT BECAUSE THIS IS THE SONG THAT NEVER ENDS IT JUST KEEPS GOING ON AND ON MY FRIENDS SOME PEOPLE, STARTED SINGING IT NOT KNOWING WHAT IT WAS AMD THEYLL CONTINUE SINGING IT BECAUSE THIS IS THE SONG THAT NEVER ENDS IT JUST KEEPS GOING ON AND ON MY FRIENDS SOME PEOPLE, STARTED SINGING IT NOT KNOWING WHAT IT WAS AMD THEYLL CONTINUE SINGING IT BECAUSE THIS IS THE SONG THAT NEVER ENDS IT JUST KEEPS GOING ON AND ON MY FRIENDS SOME PEOPLE, STARTED SINGING IT NOT KNOWING WHAT IT WAS AMD THEYLL CONTINUE SINGING IT BECAUSE THIS IS THE SONG THAT NEVER ENDS IT JUST KEEPS GOING ON AND ON MY FRIENDS SOME PEOPLE, STARTED SINGING IT NOT KNOWING WHAT IT WAS AMD THEYLL CONTINUE SINGING IT BECAUSE
Absolutely deranged. No way I'm reading that wacked out shit.
Yeah 4 paragraphs followed by an old repeating nursery rhyme verse is more reading comprehension than youve been able to display in any of your replies so I understand. Thanks for concluding with a personal attack by calling me deranged tho. It really shows your true colors when it comes to conversational tolerances. THIS CONVERSATION REQUIRES ME TO DO WORK AND USE READING COMPREHENSION?!? FUCK THAT IMA CALL THEM DERANGED AND THROWING IN THE TOWEL!!!!
Lol yes the length is the issue