News
Welcome to the News community!
Rules:
1. Be civil
Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.
2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.
Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.
3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.
Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.
4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.
Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.
5. Only recent news is allowed.
Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.
6. All posts must be news articles.
No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.
7. No duplicate posts.
If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.
8. Misinformation is prohibited.
Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.
9. No link shorteners.
The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.
10. Don't copy entire article in your post body
For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.
view the rest of the comments
Found one in the wild. Very cool.
Yeah, I'm here. Please engage with the points I made earlier. Evidence and motives are important to get right when looking back at history so that we don't keep making the same mistakes again and again, especially the ones with truly dire consequences.
I'm defining socialism as the state controlling the means of production. In what way did the National Socialists not represent socialism?
Oh boy, I'll leave you with this https://www.britannica.com/story/were-the-nazis-socialists
I appreciate the link to the article, but that article did not mention any of the stated motives that came directly from the mouths of the Nazi leadership, misrepresented what happened to the unions, and completely ignored the various socialist programs that were enacted once the Nazis got power. Again, the Nazis stated that they wanted to seize the means of production and then seized the means of production once in power. What evidence do you have to say otherwise?
You believe the motives from the mouths of the nazi leaders? Reputable source of what happened to the unions? Socialist programs for who the nazis stole businesses from Jewish folks. I've show you evidence but you don't care for it.
Listening to what someone says is the first step in understanding their motives. That's not to say that you should just believe them off hand, but it is a useful data point. Disregarding that information would be an incredible disservice to your understanding of what was going on.
The unions got rolled up into the state. Many will say the unions got dissolved, which is kind of true, but misses the part where the state took control of them. The Decree of the Reich Government (May 19, 1933) makes this evident, the "Act on the Order of National Labor" (January 20, 1934) as well, the newspaper the Völkischer Beobachter, ran headlines on May 2 and 3, 1933, announcing the "coordination of the trade unions" and their incorporation into the new Nazi-led structure, and Richard J. Evans "The Coming of the Third Reich" takes about all this in depth.
You're right, I don't care for your evidence. The provided article was lazy and inaccurate.
Please show me a properly peer reviewed journal from historians who agree with you
I don't subscribe to any peer reviewed history journals and I could talk at length about the corruption endemic to the peer review process, but if you are interested in well regarded historians that also make the case that the Nazis both stated and enacted state control of the means of production:
Hannah Arendt's The Origins of Totalitarianism (1951) is a great souce and Carl Joachim Friedrich and Zbigniew Brzezinski's book Totalitarian Dictatorship and Autocracy (1956) is another.
If you'd rather just look at the inarguable timeline of events regarding the unions and come to your own conclusion: May 2, 1933 - Nazi forces (SA and SS) occupy the offices of all free trade unions across Germany. Union leaders are arrested, beaten, and sent to concentration camps. Their funds and properties are confiscated.
Mid-May 1933 - The remaining, now Nazi-controlled, union structure is merged into the German Labor Front (DAF).
By Law (1934): The DAF is made the only legal organization representing workers and employers.
If you want to say that a misrepresentation of socialism or there are other key events that I'm overlooking, I'm more than willing to listen.
If your only requirement for something to be socialist is the government taking over "the means of production", then the USA is also socialist, by your definition
Also, it's not my definition of socialism. The American heritage dictionary - socialism: Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
The "system" of the nazis was not about "distributing" it was all about consolidating power.
Yes, the goal of socialism IS all about consolidating power. That's the point. The Nazis were also in charge of distribution as well, hence all their food shortages they were suffering, just like the USSR.
The goal of socialism is to more evenly distribute resources, not about consolidating power. The food shortages were because of a war
On the food shortages - If you are referring to WWI, I could see the argument. If you are referring to WWII, not so much. WWII certainly didn't help the food situation, especially after invading Poland, but there were food issues in the country before the Nazis even took power (possibly also one of the contributing factors for why the Nazis were able to get power in the first place). One of the main topics in 1925's Mein Kampf was about seizing the farmland to the east preciously b/c of the food shortages and then the 1929 great depression hit which escalated the issue.
On the goal of socialism - I don't know man. With my rose colored glasses on, I agree with you; the intention is to create better efficiencies in production/distribution by centralizing the planning so that everyone can reap the benefits more equally. When I take those glasses off, I see the purpose as a power grab by those that position themselves near the power centers of the political organization seeking to implement those policies. This is not to say that it might not still be better than some capitalist free market laissez fairere dystopian hellscape.
Yes, aspects of the US government are socialist. This isn't news. The most glaring example being the Central banks and Federal reserve.
Ah so now it's aspects? No since the nazis nationalized businesses, as per you they were socialists. So is the USA
That's not the gotcha you think it is. I was trying to be less provocative by saying 'aspects'. I do think the USA is socialist.
I'm not surprised that you do to be honest, you got nazi Germany wrong so you getting the USA wrong tracks
My friend...
Water, electricity, sewage, the postal service, the FAA, the FDA, the SEC, the Federal Reserve, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Unemployment Insurance, SNAP, Housing vouchers, Welfare, K-12 public education, public universities, federal loans, government subsidies, bailouts, the interstate highway system, bridges, dams, national parks, progressive taxation...
Like...which other industry would you like the government to get involved in before you entertain calling it socialist? I gather that the argument can be a provocative overstatement. However, I think you would agree that "the USA has successfully integrated many socialist inspired policies into its capitalist system" is an easily defensible position.
Confusing services with socialism. Confusing fascism with socialism. Confusing capitalism with socialism. Confused, confused, confused. Narrow minds are usually very confused.
Oh hey Tiger666, good to see you again my friend. Congrats on ALMOST making an entire reply without trying to insult someone. I hope one day we can in a civil dialog 🤗
Sure it has some social benefits it's hardly socialist.
We may need to agree to disagree on this one. I take the position that since 1913 w/ the addition of the 16th amendment the USA became socialist. Again though, I do understand why that can be viewed as an overly provocative stance. The distinction for some of these terminologies can get messy.
Out of curiosity, from your perspective, what additional policies would need to be enacted to make the USA socialist?
Abolish the ruling class and distribute the resources of the country in a more fair fashion. Setup a proper social safety net so that Healthcare isn't tied to employment. For starters
Fuck yeah! I'm with you brother.
Great! Nazis still were socialist though. And nazis are fucking horrible
see your problem there
And how do you define socialism?
Socialism is 1:1 Capitalism, simply with democracy extended to the workplace.
Nothing the Nazis did follows this, they did fascism, corporatism.
Co-opting the popular aesthetics of socialism, they did fake populism like every other far-right group in history.
Tell me, do you believe the DPRK is democratic?
I don't think I've ever heard that definition of socialism before. I gave the American Heritage definition of socialism earlier in the thread, which was 'the state controlling the means of production and distribution'. Does that mesh well with your understanding of socialism? Corporatism is the public ownership of a business. It's in the name, corpo, body, the people, the state...the state controlling the means of production.
Not trying to be difficult by asking this, but how are you defining fascism? And how are you defining 'far-right'?
I ask, because both these terms are kind of floaty, especially in modern parlance, and have changed over the years. The Nazi and Fascist (the fascism being promoted by Giovanni Gentile and adopted by Mussolini) ideologies were a bit at odds with each other, hence why so many Jews fled Germany and Eastern Europe and were safe in Fascist Italy and why Mr. Fascist himself, Mussolini, had a Jewish mistress for some 20+ years. It should be noted, Mussolini did start vocalizing some racist shit a few years after allying with the Nazis, but it was very much not in line with what he was saying through the rest of his political career and completely flew in the face of what Gentile was promoting. There was some amount cross over in the ideologies (namely the state controlling the means of production bit), but the Nazis were not Fascists and the Fascists were not Nazis. Just to reiterate, I'm talking about the historical definition of fascism that was being used by the fascists at the time, not whatever that word has morphed into over the years.
The left/right thing has always been an overly simplistic way to classify policies and political movements to me. The Nazis did align themselves with a powerful conservative party during their rise to power and disallowed the socialist and communist parties from participating in the government, but they also implemented a great deal of social welfare programs, unemployment programs, brought woman into positions of power within the government, allowed woman the right to vote as well, and had state funded vacations for citizens. I don't know if you can classify all of that as right wing or not, maybe you can, I don't know 🤷♀️
No, I do not believe the DPRK is democratic. Why do you ask?
No, that definition is inherently incongruent with my understanding - that is Communism as I understand. In Socialism, the means of production is controlled by the workers, businesses are similar to co-operatives.
There can be structural hierarchies within, but workers have democratic input on the direction of the means of production. By definition today, the U.S. (while implementing social policy) is not Socialist, the Capitalist structure ensures the worker is subjugated. The worker has no bearing on the direction of the company, and thus democratic voice in the work place.
Most countries adopted the ideals of popular framework of socialism (the classic Marxian sense) to some degree after WW2, they put the worker at the heart and center of the society. Through unions, workers were the central organizing unit of society - they demanded political reforms, and thus society was geared towards making the lives of the middle class/working class better. There was excellent public healthcare, great public schools, cheap universities in the 50s, 60s and 70s. So... although Socialism didn't win and was stomped out, it was only by adopting the frameworks (by having unions that fought for the rights of the workers) would the public accept this, as their lives would improve.
That is, until the 80s, with 'The Revolt of the Elite', and the rise of Neoliberalism. Here is where the worker was slipped away, and the Consumer became the organizing unit of society. The mentality of the consumer, infected the minds of the masses, and it's consequences have fundamentally changed our society. Today unions have no significant power, society is catered to the elite, while the middle class and especially the working class are left to ROT.
Corporatism was one of the main tenets of Mussolini's Fascism. I mangled my neurons, because 'Italian Fascism' is fascism in the as is 'National Socialism' modern sense.
As to why Corporatism was present in Mussolini's Italy but not Hitler's Germany, this was because of two main things:
Either way, what is happening in the US right now is more similarly Corporatocracy, which is what I actually meant the Nazis were engaged in when I made my comment. They essentially pioneered authoritarian capitalism.
Fascism as in the Cambridge definition:
While some people escaped Germany and lived fine in Italy, that does not indicate any specific traits of those countries, as the person who escaped Germany could have just been Italian... They were at odds with each other because they are/were unique nations with differing material conditions to bring forth different outcomes. A-la how Corporatism was present in one, but never came to fruition in the other.
Fascism is a 'far-right', authoritarian and ultranationalist political ideology.
'Far-right' refers to right-wing extremism. A range of ideologies marked by ultraconservatism, authoritarianism, ultranationalism, radical anticommunism and nativism. It distinguishes itself from more mainstream right-wing ideology by its opposition to liberal democratic norms and emphasis on exclusivist views.
While it is, yes, an overly simplistic division tactic, it's ubiquity throughout society means it is unavoidable. People have tried to improve on it (with the 2-axis political spectrum), but it is insufficient, has created worse problems, and probably was an even further division tactic.
The Nazis could align with the conservative party, because their politics are most alike. Because they both exist on the right side of the political spectrum. Disallowing political opposition as you describe, banning the opposite side of the spectrum, socialists and communists, is pure fascism.
Implementing social welfare programs and unemployment programs, is not inherently Socialist. Just because something benefits a subset of the population does not mean it it socialist. Furthermore, the reason for these benefits is not least to provide the necessary national myth of unity to hold the remaining society together.
When these benefits come off the backs off of an ethnic cleansing campaign, they can no longer be considered Socialist. Socialism would have required Nazi Germany to NOT have built an ethno-state to serve with those benefits, rather serving the entire existing community as democratically would benefit them the most.
Providing those benefits is also not inherently against a far-right ideology either, and thus isn't evidence against them being on the right. Since every one of those benefits was only provided in an ultranationalist, anticommunist and nativist sense.
Welfare chauvinism is a common tenet of far-right ideology.
I asked because I figured you were on the opposite side of the informed spectrum, like the majority who say the Nazis were socialist, saying they are simply because they have it in their name. I.E. the Democratic People's Republics of Korea must be Democratic. However you are quite informed, with a curious perspective. So that gotcha fell flat 🤣
Wow, thanks for the awesome write up and keeping it super respectful and even complimentary! Yeah, we were using a few of the same words a bit differently. Once I shifted my thinking to your definitions, we might not have a whole lot of daylight between us.
I don't have time for a full response at the moment, but I can see the argument you're making for the Nazis practicing authoritarian capitalism and find it somewhat compelling. The amount that they spoke out against 'the jewish money system' of capitalism does give me pause though, perhaps it was more rhetoric than policy. I'll have to dig into when I have a bit more time tomorrow night.
We might have some differences on what counts as left/right policies, but I think that's mostly on me struggling to define what is left/right. We're also probably in massive agreement on the travesty of the unions losing relevance in the US and the harm that it's done.
Democracy is a funny word. At some point the world decided that the word democracy means good and we should slap that label on anything we want to be perceived as good. Plato is rolling in his grave. Thanks again for the feedback friend.