Ask Lemmy
A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions
Rules: (interactive)
1) Be nice and; have fun
Doxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. Please familiarize yourself with them
2) All posts must end with a '?'
This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?
3) No spam
Please do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.
4) NSFW is okay, within reason
Just remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either !asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world or !asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com.
NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].
5) This is not a support community.
It is not a place for 'how do I?', type questions.
If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to Lemmy.world Support or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.
6) No US Politics.
Please don't post about current US Politics. If you need to do this, try !politicaldiscussion@lemmy.world or !askusa@discuss.online
Reminder: The terms of service apply here too.
Partnered Communities:
Logo design credit goes to: tubbadu
view the rest of the comments
Tbh, I think GATTACA barely touched the topic. It focussed so much on the brothers' rivalry that you could strip out the genetic engineering part and it'd barely change the movie
Yeah it’s a cool movie but the message of systemic disadvantages don’t matter if you try hard enough is a little questionable at best.
I think it's trying to show we are more than just our genetics, there's a lot of nurture/environment/action that affects outcomes. The protagonist had drive, determination, exercised and worked for the dream. Most eugenic people didn't have the same drive and took life for granted, so he could outperform them.
Its complicated in its portrayal, for sure. It comes off at a glance like "just signam grindset bro," but really the protagonist had to lie, cheat and steal his way to his dream, while also being an absolute fatalist while pushing his body near to death. Even then, he still needed to convince a doctor to fake his results at the end. That's not a pro "grindset" or "you can overcome" message really. It shows how absolutely fucked you are if you aren't born into advantage, how weighted everything is against you.
The movie would have hit harder if he got to the end and got caught and denied his dream. Just end with him in prison, staring out a window up at the stars.
Agree but people only want to watch happy endings.
... did you watch Gattaca? Also it was kind of a flop so... you are in large company.
Spoilers for a movie that is almost 30 years old I guess
spoiler
Vincent's brother is more or less mentally broken and likely to face career problems if people ever investigate what actually happened with the investigation... possibly because the astronaut died en route to Jupiter or whatever. Vincent himself is likely on a suicide trip. Jude Law's character ACTUALLY commits suicide.Gattaca's ending is not a happy one. It is exactly what was said during the swimming scene. It is about putting your everything into an endeavor with no care for self preservation or "the swim back". Which... very questionable understanding of genetics aside (very clear they were on the same sauce that Kojima was...), kind of is the "bootstraps" mentality distilled to a suicide run. Some people can succeed just by virtue of their birth and upbringing. Others more or less need to kill themselves to even have a chance. And... a lot of those people never even make it to the chance, let alone have a way to appreciate it.
I've seen it but i don't remember any of it except the swimming scene. lol
The issue wasn't "try hard enough". It was how systematic disenfranchisement hobbles people far more than their genetics.
Once you brand someone as "lesser", their actual capacity is irrelevant. They won't be given the opportunity to succeed (much less to fail and try again) while the presumed-superior cohort is offered advantage after advantage in order to prove they are better.
I mean... It was showing the extreme lengths he had to go through, the risks he has to take, just to compete for the same opportunities.
At the end it came down to him going for the launch despite knowing he'd likely get caught and the doctor letting him through despite knowing who he is, because his son was also not engineered, I think the message was people of the under class coming together to fight the system rather than just working hard
I don't think that was the message at all.
The end message is that the doctor knew all along, and was helping him from the beginning. It didn't matter how much work he put in, how hard he tried. How much he lied or cheated or "overcame his limitation", at the end of the day he would have never succeeded without help from a fellow human.
Doing it all himself had started to make him prideful to some degree. And realizing that, in the background, he didn't do it all himself was a last kick of humility to (ironically) ground the character before he leaves the ground forever.
He knew all along? I guess I didn’t pick up on that. I thought it was just at the very end.
I can see how that might change the message of the film somewhat.
It's not expressly said. But that's my take on it from a few different clues. For starters, he wasnt' surprised by the invalid reading. Also the story that he tells about his son not being "all that was promised" came early in the film, with the doctor saying "who knows what he can achieve" like a wink or a nudge almost.
For the kinds of class based gene editing we are likely to see, it kinda isn't. More attractive, bigger boobs, better predisposition to fitness, etc. That is all surmountable.
Where it falls apart are "goofy" looking people likely Michael Phelps who are straight up genetic freaks. But those aren't the kinds of genes the rich want... For themselves.
I mean, I would expect the first thing they would want to edit would be things like intelligence, level of optimisim/happiness, ability to be a social butterfly, ability to delay gratification and stick to long term goals, etc. In addition to being smokin' hot, of course.
Whaaat? You mean you can't overcome a heart defect with a bit more grit?
I really can't imagine what China is doing..
Trump is directly undermining national safety by abandoning higher education, college visas for foreigners, scientific studies etc.
15 years ago we knew exactly what China was doing. Now? Good luck
He is in many many ways. Thats what i mean with China.
...did you respond to the wrong comment?
I mean with CRISPR..
Chinese researchers publish in the same international journals everyone does, I don't think they are using CRISPR any differently than anyone this side of the pacific is.
Plus; https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/chinese-scientist-linked-to-gene-edited-babies-sentenced-to-prison
It's illegal.
They follow the law?
I doubt any more or less than people here do
C'mon man, really?
Yeah, really.
I'm more concerned about the abuses of the government and billionaires in my own country. Why should I get my panties in a twist about a country on the other side of the planet in a language I don't speak? That's on their citizens to worry about. Me as a yankee and you as canuck worrying about the other side of the pacific is wasted effort at best, and buying into the military industrial complex at worst.
But our side has rules, you assume they play by the rules. You should worry about countries that don't follow international rules.
China academia has the same problem that US academia has: publish or perish.
And seriously, you can't say something like that and ignore all the BS the US government has been pulling internationally for decades. Trump murdered 14 random people on boats that weren't even in US territory, and seemingly no one on the international stage gives a shit
Oh theres a shit ton of BS. but you are trying to deflect to the US. no one has ever given a shit, look at Israel. What does that have to do with the context of the dicussion?
You brought it up, you specifically said "our side has rules". It's not a deflection to point out that "our side" violates those rules whenever it suits them.
rules isnt the right term I guess, ethics maybe, scientific principles, not pushing things before they are ready? Worried about the kids ya know. Things China might have a different view of.
Stop me if this is too large a leap, but I think maybe people in china value the well-being of their children. You know. Like everyone does, everywhere.
Also, iPad babies are a phenomenon here. Pushing things before they're ready or we have a complete understanding of the consequences is a global phenomenon.
The people value this but does the government?
Where are you getting the idea that the government in China doesn't care about their children?
Uh yea, I am, ya know maybe dissidents prisoners or Uyghurs peoples.
I'm not here to downplay those problems in China. They are serious. But, that's not the government saying they don't care about children, it's saying that they have their own racist and bigoted political problems.
And, if you've paid any attention, the US is doing really similar things and has been for a long time. We made some progress with the Civil rights movement, but we still have Black people arrested at 2x the rate of white, 37% of the prison pop is Black while they only represent 13% of the general pop. The education system has all but erased the cultural roots of Black Americans, and God forbid a Black teen uses slang to communicate. Most of the sectioning off of voting areas in the US is to minimize their and other minority's voting power. For now it's still legal to say "Hey this influencer really made life bad for me, and I'm okay with him being dead", but it may not remain legal for long. EPA regulations are being dissolved, but the biggest problems will affect traditionally/forced Black neighborhoods.
Not all children are equal in the US and the same holds true for China, But the difference is staggering.
I mean, they prosecuted the guy. You tell me.
China prosecuted someone for something? No shit really?
https://lemmy.zip/post/48934693/21546329
...you think the US has scientific ethics? What the fuck have you been watching for the last 60 years?
I just think they are better than China, maybe I'm wrong.
Hey man, you're the one that brought up rules. But while we're talking about international rules, gene editing of embryos and their descendants is legal in the US if it's privately funded. And it's not illegal internationally to do so
Also, I'd be less worried about CRISPR specifically for this use, because it's not always accurate, is limited in what it can actually do, and there are better gene editing tools now
The "rules" allowed for the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. My government is arming and funding a genocide. Our rules are a pretext for the powerful and wealthy to do as they please, while constraining smaller countries.