no we don'i. Just like with any other alive being, we can only assume, based on what that alive being is communicating, and our personal perception of reality and experience. A human can be hurt, but we won't know, as long as they won't communicate. Everything else is an assumption.

Yes, we do. We can easily see how they respond to stimuli; they cry out in pain when wounded, show fear reactions when presented with dangerous stimuli, and show signs of grief and loss when another animal/person dies.

Like, this isn't up for debate by some random nobody on the Internet, there's scientific evidence of that fact.

Therefore, this concept is often excluded in definitions of pain in animals, such as that provided by Zimmerman: "an aversive sensory experience caused by actual or potential injury that elicits protective motor and vegetative reactions, results in learned avoidance and may modify species-specific behaviour, including social behaviour."[4] Nonhuman animals cannot report their feelings to language-using humans in the same manner as human communication, but observation of their behaviour provides a reasonable indication as to the extent of their pain. Just as with doctors and medics who sometimes share no common language with their patients, the indicators of pain can still be understood.

Pain in animals

I'm not even going to bother with the rest of your comment considering how far off base you are here.

https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/plants-are-alive/resources

if you don’t have time then why bother debating?

I’m here cause i’m mildly drunk and cause i wanna entertain myself and people of lemmy with a philosophical blabber. No hurt feelings.

@Teppichbrand@feddit.org This is why I don't bother debating with carnists. To them the pain and suffering they cause is just a mildly interesting talking point that they use for their ghoulish entertainment. They will demand an original write up to the same tired talking points you and I have seen a dozen times and will not genuinely engage with anything you link (I'm talking about this incident where a carnist was intruding in a vegan space)

Anywho, the article you provided… It seems like a dramatic personal story

It isn't if you read past the introductory paragraph and actually watched the media like I asked.

I was raised in a village, where we had our own livestock, and i’ve seen my share of cruelty.

So you agree that it's cruel? What the fuck was your point about "we can’t really know if we’re actually harming them"

Being kind and generous, as opposed to being cruel, is a vanity.

no, it's a virtue. I dont know what you think a vanity is, but being kind and generous are virtues.

So if you think that veganism is highly moral, you’d better tell me the plan to make everybody vegan, so everyone would have a sound sleep at night.

At this point I'm fully in support of "ask once, shoot twice (if you can get away with it)". Glory to the armed animal resistance.

The article makes for a dramatic story, but otherwise offers no solution to the conundrum,

You didn't read it. You so clearly didn't read it

What to do? In 2012, researcher Kathyn Gillespie visited a livestock auction for her paper Witnessing Animal Others: Bearing Witness, Grief and the Political Function of Emotion. The experience showed an erasure so complete that, even with the suffering bang in front of them, the crowd saw nothing amiss. “The audience was filled with buyers and spectators talking cheerfully about the animals, prices, their farms and families,” writes Gillespie. “For humans who farm and are in the animal product industry, the auction is a jovial place where they can come together for some lighthearted banter and a meal in the auction canteen. The auction is not scripted as a place of human or animal grief. Animals’ lives and bodies in this space are thoroughly commodified, their suffering illegible to the accustomed observer, the violence against them made mundane through its regularity.“ (3)
...
The campaigns by VIVA, Animal Aid and AJP are having an impact; activists and sanctuaries around the world are doing their best to rescue whoever they can. Academics such as Gillespie, Adams and Gruen are challenging worldviews. Activism, in all its different forms, works, telling the truths no one wants to hear, despite attracting often vitriolic pushback. Like I said, I became vegan when my daughter was seven. Body and soul, it’s the best decision I ever made, allowing me to live in alignment with my deepest held beliefs. If anyone asks me why (and no one ever does), this is what I’d like to say: I’m vegan because I reject all forms of erasure and domination. I’m vegan because animals are our kin, not our slaves. I’m vegan because I believe in the beauty of the natural world and all her beings. I’m vegan because I don’t believe people want to act against their better natures. I’m vegan because I stand in solidarity with all mothers. Remember the Mothers of Lowfields. Happy Mother’s Day.

Emphasis mine

not to mention that it barely relates to the topic, that , might i remind you, being “is veganism a virtue”

Another problem is that farm animals don’t talk much about their feelings, ro we can’t really know if we’re actually harming them, thus we can’t say whether we’re helping them by stopping the process

You fucking brought it up!! Jesus christ carnists are some of the most navel-gazing smuggest pieces of reddit-brained shits out there.