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this post was submitted on 15 Sep 2023
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As someone who supports rights for everyone because I don't care at all about any of this stuff - I think this is right, it is to record your gender at birth. It also records their weight which changes too but we don't change the snapshot of when you're first born. I think that another certificate should be issued to record how a person wants to be viewed be it changing their name or gender or whatever.
Except we all know this is not done in good faith to fix a real problem. It’s real intent to further push a transphobic agenda and punish people who are trans.
But this should never have been the case, the birth certificate should never have been in this discussion. I don't want these people to be discriminated against but this is a stupid argument to have made in the first place. It is not transphobic to factually record whether a new born has a penis or a vagina - which is the entirety of what the intention of recording gender has been since the beginning of records.
Would agree, except 99% of person identification, uses sex and specifically YOUR birth certificate. For current identification purposes for anything official.
Birth certificates are not used for any medical purpose. They are entirely for identification.
They are a legal record of your birth, get an ID for identification. I have no problem with someone changing any ID or being considered whatever they want. My only issue is the birth cert side of things.
This is a bad take. This law’s intent is 100% to hurt trans people. Don’t go looking for reason and justifying it.
The intent of the people behind the law isn't what I'm discussing. It is that this should never have been on the agenda, argue for inclusion and equal right but don't argue to change a legal document that merely recorded the facts as they were at the time.
I dont disagree with with their intention but it's not what I'm arguing against. I'm merely saying that the document should not be altered after the fact, it should remain as it was then forever more as an official recording of the facts as they were then. That's all. Don't change names, genders, parents, or location. Leave it as it was unless there was a legitimate factual error like misspelling a name or address.
The trump ban is something unrelated that I'm not discussing.
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Both of those are false assertions, I'm sorry I don't fit into the box you'd like. Not everyone who doesn't subscribe to every facet of social issue as you is a trump supporter.
I don't disagree that it is their intention.
I'm not discussing their intention, which is why the parallel doesn't work.
However, because all other records take information from your birth certificate, this effectively bars trans people from having photo identification that aligns with their gender. This creates a safety issue for trans people every time they have to provide said photo identification.
Your birth certificate also records the name your parents gave you at birth, but we've allowed people to amend the document when they change their name for a long time. Why is this any different?
Absolutely, this makes a lot of sense as to why this is dangerous and as to why these people need to change their birth cert.
But the answer to it is to have another legal document created to document the transition.
Safety issue? If someone is in danger from showing an ID they're probably in danger already. Regular people wouldn't care less.
Plenty of folks don't know. There are experts that are brought in to determine confusing cases, and they sometimes get it wrong. Be happy if your genitals just match one of the obvious binaries and you don't have this issue. But many folks do.
I don't understand this, I get there are very rare cases of a third chromosome or gene or whatever the X and Ys are. But the vast vast majority of cases it is completely down to if the baby has a penis or a vagina. That is it, I'm a supporter of people's rights and I don't like appearing on the same side as horrible people but the purpose of the document is to record the facts as they stand. If experts need to be called in to determine the result, then we take their determination as the result as they are the experts. If need be put an asterisk to show there was a consensus required.
The purpose of the document is to record facts but you're ok if those facts are wrong sometimes. That seems strange to me.
Why does the document event need a gender or sex? We're recording that a person was born for proof of citizenship. Citizenship doesn't require genitalia.
We're recording for a number of reasons which includes birth of citizenship. There are important demographic reasons for why you need to know what % of your population is male versus female.
For example, policy in China where there are a larger ratio of males would need to be different than in Russia where there is a higher ratio of females.
I don't really see the issue in all of this. A trans person should be treated as whatever gender they wanna be but they are born one sex or the other. We can't pretend otherwise, makes no sense.
Sex. Isn't. Binary. Intersex people exist. They exist. They are real.
I'd agree with you if there were three options: obviously male, obviously female, TBD. That would be more accurate. But to claim there are only two and you know at birth is just ignorant.
Ok then put TBD on ones you can't tell at birth. Sure, that makes sense. There are exceptions to everything.
What percentage of people are born with both, or none or indistinguishable sexual organs? I'm not entirely against TBD for the record but I think your argument is disingenuous, not every person who is trans is one the incredibly rare circumstances where this issue arises.
Some people live as one gender for a long time before transitioning and while I'm happy for them to do as they please and live a safe and happy life I don't think they should change their birth cert. Official documents are used for am enormous amount of statistics and changing them serves only to confuse the data and misrepresent facts. All that is needed is an amendment document that shows that while their birth cert says male they are now female. That's it
Around 1in 1,000.
You are going through ridiculous leaps and lengths to avoid the obvious simple solution that already exists today. And for what? A strange need for a document to be immutable? Perfection of historical information?
Those seem like tenuous reasons do something that actively takes options from people who value those options.
You're off by about 1000-3500 according to the study i just found. "The estimated frequency of genital ambiguity is reported to be in the range of 1:2000-1:4500"
If the document was the summary of the person then fine change it. If the only people that were looking to change it were those affected by genital ambiguity mentioned then fine change it. But it isn't the case, not everyone who is trans is someone like that, and they don't have to be. They were born as one gender and they want to live as another, that's fine but don't change records to suit that. You don't move house and change your birth location.
How about this: I’ll enjoy my updated birth certificate, and you can go fuck yourself?
Very good counter argument, well thought out and presented. Maybe get the cert amended to show you self identify as an asshole?
Maybe I can rip yours up and stuff it in the trash?
Ok? I'm not saying not to do it for them, it is a legitimate case in that it couldn't be determined at birth or the person, as a result of the ambiguousness, can choose to be either and the initial document was wrong.
I'm saying that if I want to transition tomorrow I shouldn't change my cert, I've lived my life as I am now and while I want to change going forward I can't and shouldn't change the past.
If you read my other comments you'd see that my view is exactly the same for changing your name.
As for women changing theirs, there is an additional document created and registered to reflect that change so you can trace the birth name to the marriage name and onward from there.
It is literally changing our recording of history, it doesn't matter right now but in the future we may rely on accurate records for something and having a practice wherein you can change the details recorded for a past event is not going to help that
Is it so strange that someone expects an official document about someone's birth to accurately represent that birth?
But is that what we want? Fuck it, let's change the past and pretend it's something that's a little more pleasant. It's "for a good reason". To make someone feel better. Get rid of anything that might cause discomfort while you're at it. Let's get rid of slavery - might make people feel uncomfortable. Seems you agree more with DeSantis's fascist revisionism than you might initially expect.
People deserve to be treated with dignity and respect no matter who they are. But we cannot start playing make believe to protect feelings. A rock is a rock is a rock. If you were born a male then you were born a male end of story.
You can transition after, and people should show you respect and kindness. But forever and for the rest of history you would have been born a male.
It makes me feel so frustrated how this ideology has impregnated the left. We are losing the war against fascism and here we are focusing on absolute absurdities.
Yes this is strange to want accuracy where there is none.
Are you claiming birth certificates are not generally accurate? I haven't personally examined a large number of them - just close family members & girlfriends. Every one I've looked at has been accurate.
You can't be so concerned about accuracy that changing 1 in a thousand is a problem for you, and then use the word 'generally'. You want ridiculously high precision, or you wouldn't care if a tiny percentage went back to correct theirs.
The birth certificate doesn't typically get changed when you change your name. But yeah, I would disagree with both things equally. I don't think we should change birth certificate at all. I actually think it's a dangerous thing to start doing.
In most jurisdictions, the birth certificate generally remains unchanged to reflect the original information at the time of birth. Some places allow for an amended birth certificate, which will show the new name but also indicate that the name has been legally changed. I'm fine with changing the sex as long as there is an asterisk next to it.
I don't see how this is similar to mail in ballots. The attempts by the GOP to lower access to voting is directly unconstitutional and a deliberate attempt at voter suppression. They have said as much - for example for voter id laws a NC congressman GOP member openly said it's because implementing that law would reduce black voting by like 2% or something from their research. That would help Republicans win elections.
And sure, I'll give you that they are doing this as a deliberate way to rile up the anti-trans base. However, just because someone does something for wrong reason doesn't mean what he does is wrong.
What I mean by dangerous is the arbitrary alteration of historical documents. We rely on our documents to be able to accurately represent the past. If we change these, we are essentially "deleting" the past. I mentioned before, DeSantis's revisionism. What if we got rid of all mentions of slavery in our historical record? No future historian could ever study slavery. It would essentially not have happened.
Now, the reason for doing it may be noble. You want a trans person to feel better about the transition, so you change the name on the birth certificate. But I think that this does not warrant the alteration of historical records. Put a little amendment star on the birth certificate and attach a new document if it needs to be done. This is what many places do. But do not change the original document in such a way that makes it seem they were born a sex they were not.
The bill is not very long you can read it here
In 2019 the Kansas courts essentially passed a ruling that made it so you could change the birth certificate. Not an amendment. Just totally alter the birth certificate to change both the name and the sex - as if it were the name and sex you were born with. Which, as we discussed, is absurd.
Now it's impossible legally speaking because they passed that new law, SB 180 that defines what a man or a woman is. And in that new definition, you are either male at birth, female at birth, or have some sort of sex "disorder/difference". You can't alter that sex in the legal sense.
Which to be honest, I don't really see what the big deal is. Who cares what a piece of paper says? What is more important is your sense of self-identity and how people treat you. At the end of the day, If you are born a male and you undergo a transition.. take estrogen, grow breasts, look feminine, etc. If I see you walking down the street, I will assume you are a female and I will treat you as such. I think everyone has the right to respect, dignity, and the pursuit of happiness.
However, we cannot start playing make-believe. A male->female trans person will always have XY chromosomes. If they transitioned after puberty, they will always have the male sexualization period that allows for muscle growth, adam's apple, etc. No amount of wishing or contemporary medicine can reverse these things.
So why not just keep the legal documents accurate and just treat them how they would like to be treated? Why the need to try and deny reality? This concerted effort to try and say 2 + 2 = 5? I really don't understand how everyone is OK with this. I guess this is what ideology is.
This is not true. It was not legally possible in Kansas to do this until 2019, where there was a court ruling that made it possible. It was not ever done in Kansas.
I told you why I give a damn. Official documents should represent reality. We should not alter history to make someone feel better. Road to hell is paved with good intentions. I've elaborated on this quite a bit actually, none of which you seem to be reading?
You have not made an argument about why this document is so sacred. Why does it matter if the occasional person formally submits a change to a document people alter all the time?
You are also incorrect about whether or not people can change their birth certificates in Kansas. And a cursory Google search would show you multiple state websites detailing the parameters for doing just that. You can hide behind the fact that sex/gender was specifically protected/added in kansas in 2019 (and clearly with good reason!) but the birth certificate has never been considered some sacred, immutable document. People have changed it for a very long time in multiple states. You can pull up the form for Texas adoptees straight up throw out the old and create a new one right now.
You’re also acting like if we change our birth certificates there’s literally no way for people to know what it said before, which is absolutely ludicrous as well.
This entire decision was for one reason: to hurt people who don’t fit nearly into a gender binary chosen for them. It’s republicans waging social war. That’s it. And until you can provide proof it isn’t about that you’re simply siding with bigots. Bigots who have never batted an eye at changing the birth certificate for adoptive kids by their parents Note: this is a form for Kansas citizens. But suddenly they all are mad when you or I want to change one single identifier to be more accurate for ourselves. Ridiculous.
They’re so brazen they didn’t even just say “birth certificates can never be altered” to give even a veneer of a legitimate reason. They specifically left carve outs for situations they deem worthy. So no, the document needs to be exactly the same as it was recorded is not a real argument when there are other reasons they allow you to alter it.
“We shouldn’t alter history” is too dramatic to even address, especially since (like I linked above) Kansas has no issue with other things being changed.
If you're adopted, you can get your birth certificate amended to put the names of your adoptive parents on it. If you change your name, you can do the same. They're exclusively singling out gender here.
You make a good point. We can change who we are but we can't change who we were.
I can just see right wingers trying to make yet more laws to fuck over trans people tho saying they can only use their "assigned at birth certificate" or something.
That's exactly it, and it's really annoying for people to assume I'm a right winger because I have a very slight and specific difference of opinion.
I could see them doing just that and it should be tackled every single time.