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this post was submitted on 17 Oct 2023
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Lemmy Shitpost
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This comment thread is an absolute fucking joke. You're all dumb as absolute fuck.
Both sides of this conflict are pieces of shit. There is no side "to blame." This conflict has been going on for about 100 years and both sides have committed human rights violation and heinous acts of violence.
If you actually want to blame someone, blame the fucking British and the Americans for manipulating both the zionists and the Palestinians to help win the world wars, and for promising them both the same land.
You're all wasting your time trying to to blame Israel or Palestine. Don't be so fucking lazy people. Read a god damn history book rather than basing your opinions on social media. Jesus...
Guilty Killing civilians: Hamas, Israeli government.
Guilty of Genocide: Israeli government
People who don't deserve to get killed: Palestine civilians, Israeli civilians.
People who have claims to the land: both Palestine civilians and Israeli civilians (sorry the situation is fucked).
Fascist and helping each other gain power: Hamas, Netanyahu
Why are the attacks from Israel considered genocidal, but not those from Palestine?
because Hamas hasn't cut off water to some 2 million people? like, positions of power mean you will end up actually qualifying for things like "committing genocide" much sooner
So Hamas who want to commit genocide but fail at it are not genocidal. But Israel which could easily commit genocide but doesn't do it is genocidal?
Look up the definition. Israel is currently commiting genocide. Not denying that hamas didn't want to, but they aren't in a position to do so and never will be.
Definition of genocide:
The aim of Israel isn't to destroy Palestine or kill all Palestinians. They definitely want to destroy Hamas, maybe they want to take over Gaza. While their tactics are inhumane and kill many Palestinians, I don't see how you could argue their real goal is to kill Palestinian as an ethnicity. Abou 20 % of the citizens in Israel are Palestinian. And they also do not attack the Westbank.
who said Israel doesn't commit genocide? just by numbers, if Hamas had committed genocide Israel would have done so 10 times sooner
Genocide isn't about numbers though. A genocide means your goal is to kill everyone from a certain ethnicity. With currently 20 % of citizens in Israel being Palestinian and no attacks on the Westbank I can't see how you would argue the goal and reason for the war is that Israel wants to kill everyone with Palestinian ethnicity?
West bank settlers are currently just shooting Palestinians while being protected by the government, and no, you actually need to be able to kill the people to call it genocide,
Not effective enough, I'm guessing
I don't think it's because of lack of will or lack of trying from the Arab side
So to be clear, what are you saying? Are you saying the genocide is justified?
I would like to see the logic you used to come to that conclusion from my comment
Gladly, thanks for asking. So I started out with my general assumption that genocide is always bad. I figured most people agree with that.
Then I looked at your reply and I was like this person is listing some reasons why the Israeli government is genocideing civilians and I noticed that you lumped Palestinian civilians and Hamas into one group "Arabs". And I thought that was interesting because Arabs is a pretty large group that includes people who are unrelated to the current conflict. I also noticed that you left out one of the major reasons for the genocide which is racism. I'm sure you just forgot to list that as I think it is one of the larger reasons for doing the genocide.
Then I was trying to figure out what your comment was adding to the thread. Were you just unsure if we were aware that Hamas had killed Israeli civilians? No, my original post specified that they did.
So I was very confused as to why you made your post in the first place.
Then I remembered that some people online like the genocideing of Palestine civilians. Some people want it to keep going and for that to happen they need to make the genocide sound justified. They may do this by posting something very similar to what you posted.
Now, I don't know why you made your post, so I asked. I also wanted clarification if you thought the genocide was justified because it seems like something a pro-genocide person might post.
Now that I have written out my process, can I please get you to confirm that you think the genocide of the Palestinian civilians is bad.
It was about nutty as I expected.
I was talking about Arab attempts to drive Jews "to the sea" and remove them from the area completely. You might've seen some of these calls and heard of some of these attempts. If not, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_conflict
I'm surprised someone would take that as a pro genocide stance, but it did take some advanced logic for sure.
I'm somewhat surprised my previous reply where I made fun of you for jumping to that very assumption didn't already clarify how you were wrong. Then again, using sarcasm with someone who clearly misunderstands stuff might have been a bad move. lol
Alright, so I was wrong and a big dumb dumb.
Clearly it should be extremely easy for you to say that the genocide of Palestinian civilians is bad as you were not trying to justify it. But you haven't said it yet. It's been like 2 replies. I get it, it can be hard to keep track of everything in that big brain of yours.
So here it is. I have rolled out the red carpet. I've taken the big L. All that is left is for you reply with "the genocide of Palestinian civilians is bad". Heck you can even copy it from this reply and post it.
Yeah
Well duh. I'm gonna even go a step further and say, get this, genocide bad, in general. Be it Palestinians or anyone else really. Quite a bold statement from me
Eh, it happens. Sometimes our mouths (or fingers) are just faster than our brains. Way faster. Just gotta learn from it.
Good job! That was way harder than it needed to be, but I am glad we finally got there. Cheers!
I hope you don't realize how much of a tool you seemed through this. It might be too much for you
I'm sorry. Your link about the Arab Israeli conflict was helpful and good context.
There are just a lot of pro genocidal racists on social media and they rarely self identify because they know it looks bad.
So when you didn't answer my question directly and redirect to my thought process, I had to become a tool troll until you explicitly clarified your position on genocide.
I understand how my initial question can come off as offensive and I am sorry about that too, but you can't assume what someone's position on things are.
Fair enough
Israel has been boxing in the Palestinians for those 100 years, slowly choking them out and forcibly removing them from their homes. Now, multiple generations later, millions of Palestinians are backed into a small corner of their ancestral land as they are still forcibly removed from their homes and murdered in the streets. This is a genocide... like it has been for the last 100 years. Israelis are the invading force. Why wouldn't the Palestinians fight back? Innocent people died, but that doesn't give the Zionists the all clear to commit genocide and ethnic cleansing.
That's a neat trick considering Israel is only 75 years old.
They used the 100 years figure from OP
Sit on my face.
None of the ones who made those decisions are alive anymore. Are you going to dig up their coffins and shout at the corpses?
You make some good points though. However, we can absolutely blame actors at play today for things that are happening today. Hamas committed atrocities, now Israel is going in heavy handed and exacerbating the situation. Not sure why people find it difficult to state that. Hatred, I assume.
Israel kept them in a concentration camp for years.. was that not an atrocity?
no no, you see, Only things done TO Israel are atrocities and bad.
Palestinians just need to accept, with quiet dignity, the human rights violations, war crimes, and genocides and never raise a single finger in anger over the human rights violations and warcrimes they are subjected to.
/s
could you stop with this antisemitic bullshit? the people in Gaza aren't humans, so why tarnish the good name of Israel (that represents all the Jews in the world btw) /s
yes apparently not wanting to genocide Gaza is antisemitic due to shitty American foreign policy propaganda
This is where I'm at. I'll admit I don't know much of anything about the history of the situation, but what I see right now, is religious fanatics fighting religious fanatics. Fuck all of 'em
I am with you.
Though it would be nice if refugees from palestia would get asylum in Europe (which they don't), then the non-fanatics could get out of there, while the crazies do their thing.
Thanks, I was not aware of this. This changes a lot.
Could you point me in the right direction? (i.e. are there good/neutral articles elaborating on this specific case?)
I usually try not to comment on these topics, but where on the israeli side do you see religious fanatics? You can say many things about their side, but religion is not their motive.
really? the coalition of "Israel is a Jewish ethnostate" and literal Jewish fascist party (Jewish power, formerly anti-arab militia terror group) doesn't make you think that they may be some form of religious fanatics?
Ethnicity is not a religion. Being jewish has either a religious or an ethnic cultural meaning. Saying Israel is jewish as in religious is saying you solved a 75 year old internal argument. Heck this argument is the reason Israel has no constitution yet. Its a mostly secular country though. Most people are not acting upon any religious rules beyond celebrating the holidays (no different than celebrating christmas for "christians").
Oh, and guess what? The construction of israel is completely irrelevent to whether or not right now they are fighting due to a religion or not. They were receiving terrorist attacks and wars declared against them since conception.
Whether or not you agree with their original idea or the means they used along the way does not change the fact they are fighting for non religious reasons. They were attacked and they are responding with questionable means. Religious plays no part here.
And "jewish power" received less than 5% of the votes. In the American voting system they would have been as relevant as the american neo-nazi party (which means irrelevant). They are only in the government because fanatics are easily united, and because Netanyahu is a literal criminal that would form a government with simply anyone so that he can avoid jail time.
There very much is a collection of Jewish ethnicities, to ignore this is flat out wrong, btw here is the definition of Ethnicity:
But besides that, your entire argument flat out ignores the positions of the Ruling Israeli party over the last 20+ years. Fact is that the National Liberals and Jewish Power parties ARE in power, they DO have these beliefs, they have espoused them openly and their policy clearly shows that they mean to follow through with these ideas.
As for the last point, Israel is not America, and the Israeli system does place relevance on all the coalition partners in government, and oh ya, the equivalent of the Nazi party IS IN POWER in Israel.
I dont see the relevence of your first paragraph. Yes there is more than just 1 type of jew. So what?
Jewish power is a far right party with religious elements. It persuaded even secular young voters with speeches about a powerful country and far right ideas. Some people are easily persuaded by ideas of power. What else is new? But calling them nazi equivalents is a huge stretch. With all the bad things i can say about them, they are not nazis. Also, whether or not they are nazis is beyond the point here. They are definitely religious, they are definitely fanatics, and they are definitely not THE government.
And you completely missed the point - the political system in israel is one that gives ~some~ power even to smaller parties, such as Jewish Power and The United Arab List. They are not "in power", they simply have ~some~ power.
For reference, they have about as much power as the arabic-islamic party The United Arab List had in the previous government, yet i never saw people calling israel an islamic arabic country.
I feel like we're blaming the side that is blaming a side, and there is a lot of blame going around.
Or at least that's what I did and am trying to avoid doing again.
Lol blame the british
The conflict is 3000 years old. There is no blaming anyone.
It's a conflict older than one of the religions involved. Its crazy how people think they cam blame one side only
based.
Both sides deserve blame, though. I (weakly) support Israel because I feel that Gaza has been more evil recently.