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this post was submitted on 31 Oct 2023
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Oh, I've seen them saying a bunch of things. Combinations of "Well, it's not actually a refugee camp" and "the US also bombs civilians to take out military targets" and the long-used canard "they were warned to go south".
Not wrong though.
IRC the initial shock and awe coordinated 'surgical' bombing at the beginning of the 2003 Iraq war cost the lives of up to 8000 Iraqi civilians. I remember watching it at the time, and American media were really gushing about that whole thing. Going on about how precise it all was. Apparently if you dress it all up in a bit of newspeak (collateral damage, precision bombing, surgical strike, ...) you can convince most people that the pressure wave from a large bomb stops at the window of a building.
Maybe international law is too lax. Maybe the US is too powerful to face consequences for anything but the most egregious examples, but then again it's not as if the world (including the middle-east) gives much of a shit when Assad barrel bombs yet another a hospital. And no one gives a shit about the thousands who died in Sudan this year, because they're black, so they apparently don't count.
In a deeply cynical way, it makes sense that the IDF and Israel think it's unfair. Why should they get so much flack for war crimes, when others get away with it consequence free? China got to demolish ten thousand or more mosques, Russia got to demolish multiple cities and deliberately murder sheltering children, it's only fair that Israel gets to commit a bit of genocide.
I'm old and tired, and please understand this is an angry and sarcastic comment, but I do wonder what people think war is actually like. Especially urban warfare. Because given history, it seems to me that this is what it's always like. Thousands of dead civilians, razed buildings, and flimsy excuses and technicalities which allow countries to get away with (not so) accidentally murdering thousands. The world's biggest and least funny joke.
Though my point in bringing it up is that it's not even an actual excuse when Israel defenders use it. We Americans actively protested such things as well, as war crimes and violations of international law.
Trying to blatantly use illegal US actions as an excuse for one's own illegal actions, such as Netanyahu in his speech trying to use the US response to 9/11 as a reason for Israel to do the same, is appalling at best.
Perhaps I would be more appalled if I was even slightly surprised by it. You know how there were protests in Israel before the war about the supreme court?
This is one of the reasons why:
I mean, the US has a legal device to allow them to declare war and invade Hague if the ICC ever tries anything to them.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act
From one old and tired person to another, thanks for adding context to what is usually context-less and naive platitudes around here.
Thanks, it's like being flogged with warm lettuce
Nice metaphor, it's mine now
I stole it from an Australian parliamentarian, whose name escapes me. He had a few goodies though.
Ed: Paul Keating
I'm in the "this is not black and white" camp, but what Israel is doing now is indefensible, even when considering the inhuman atrocities Hamas committed on October 7th. Bombing a refugee camp in the hopes of killing a few Hamas terrorists is just crazy. Flattening a city full of civilians for the same reason is just crazy.
That said, I don't know what the answer is. I honestly believe there's no solution to this conflict. Proposing that Israel remove the border controls and let the Palestinians roam free, given the number of terrorists in their ranks, is just hopelessly naive. They should absolutely return the illegal settlements, but even if they do that (sadly they won't), the terrorists won't stop.