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this post was submitted on 22 Nov 2023
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I saw you argue further down in this thread that the Supreme Court would not allow the restriction of entire "weapon classes". Well that doesn't stand up to scrutiny when they already disallowed the sale of any new automatic weapons to the general public post-1986.
I hate these little semantics arguments and word games. This isn't an issue in other developed countries for a reason. Allowing the kind of debate pervert logic you are employing only serves to muddy the waters and retards society from solving problems with clear, demonstrable solutions. Grow the fuck up, seriously.
They didn't though. The general public can absolutely buy a fully automatic weapon, you just have to fill out the proper ATF forms and pay the INCREDIBLY high taxes on it. Tens of thousands of dollars.
https://rocketffl.com/who-can-own-a-full-auto-machine-gun/
I watch Forgotten Weapons every fucking day. I am intimately familiar with both the FOPA and FAWB. Both of which repeatedly and continuously stood up to constitutional challenges. The Supreme Court has repeatedly disallowed gun manufacturers from selling new "automatic weapons" (aka a class of bearable arms) to the general public. Additionally the Federal Assault Weapons Ban was repeatedly found to be constitutional, and the only reason new weapons that meet those classifications are sold today is because the FAWB had an automatic sunset clause. It could legally be reinstated by congress at any time.
While it is true that you can get an FFL and purchase a pre-1986 automatic weapon with a transferable tax stamp, the Supreme Court has BANNED the sale of all new automatic weapons. Therefore, your previous argument doesn't hold water. Take the L and move on.
Firearm Owners Protection Act (FOPA)
Federal Assault Weapons Ban (FAWB)
Tell me you didn't read my link without telling me you didn't read my link:
"Depending on the type of FFL, and if the FFL-holder becomes an Special Occupational Taxpayer (SOT) the FFL-holder can purchase and sell machine guns, regardless of when they were made (more on this below), and they can even legally make their own machine guns or lawfully convert current firearms into full-autos. The best part about getting an automatic weapon as an FFL is that you can get it at dealer cost and fast."
Tell me you don't understand the meaning of semantics without telling me you don't understand the meaning of semantics...
You literally argued that the Supreme Court would strike down any need for specialty licensing for purchasing weapons in this same thread as well. Jesus fucking christ. Did you grow up underneath power lines or live in a house with leaded paint or something?
If you need a FFL in order to purchase or trade in automatic weapons then by default those weapons are functionally banned from being sold to the general public. This is precisely why I lead with my comment about jerking off over bad legal arguments that tip-toe around the enforcement of real world solutions that can actually have a legitimate impact on gun violence. So again, from the bottom of my heart, get fukt. 😘
Any member of the general public can apply for an FFL and be allowed to buy a machine gun of any vintage, the only limiter is money and the usual background check.
Again, it's not a hard concept to grasp. You can do it, I can do it, anyone who isn't otherwise barred from gun ownership (felon, mental defective, drug user, etc. etc.) can do it.
If I can barge into this comment chain, the confusion seems to stem from your initial comment.
Isn't the application of an FFL the state requiring a permit to own a (certain kind of) gun? Likewise, the state telling folks they can or can't own guns just because of a few measly felonies...isn't that against a strict interpretation of the Second Amendment? Doesn't that deny them a "Right"?
The Oregon law is saying that you need a permit to BUY, and that's where it's butting heads with the constitution. Everyone who is legal has the right to keep and bear arms, the state can't interfere with that.
The blockage on felons is a federal restriction, not a state restriction, it's part of the FFL form you fill out when you buy a gun and is part of the background check.
Felon in possession is it's own crime, so obviously that's going to be blocked at point of sale.
The list of disqualifying questions on the firearms form is interesting, it would be nice if more people read it:
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4473-part-1-firearms-transaction-record-over-counter-atf-form-53009/download
a. Are you the actual transferee/buyer of all of the firearm(s) listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s) (ATF Form 5300.9A)?
Warning: You are not the actual transferee/buyer if you are acquiring any of the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual transferee/buyer, the licensee cannot transfer any of the firearm(s) to you. Exception: If you are only picking up a repaired firearm(s) for another person, you are not required to answer 21.a. and may proceed to question 21.b.
b. Do you intend to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s) in furtherance of any felony or other offense punishable by imprisonment for a term of more than one year, a Federal crime of terrorism, or a drug trafficking offense?
c. Are you under indictment or information in any court for a felony, or any other crime for which the judge could imprison you for more than one year, or are you a current member of the military who has been charged with violation(s) of the Uniform Code of Military Justice and whose charge(s) have been referred to a general court-martial?
d. Have you ever been convicted in any court, including a military court, of a felony, or any other crime for which the judge could have imprisoned you for more than one year, even if you received a shorter sentence including probation?
e. Are you a fugitive from justice?
f. Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance? Warning: The use or possession of marijuana remains unlawful under Federal law regardless of whether it has been legalized or decriminalized for medicinal or recreational purposes in the state where you reside.
g. Have you ever been adjudicated as a mental defective OR have you ever been committed to a mental institution?
h. Have you ever been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions?
i. Are you subject to a court order, including a Military Protection Order issued by a military judge or magistrate, restraining you from harassing, stalking, or threatening your child or an intimate partner or child of such partner?
j. Have you ever been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence, or are you or have you ever been a member of the military and been convicted of a crime that included, as an element, the use of force against a person as identified in the instructions?
k. Have you ever renounced your United States citizenship?
l. Are you an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United States?
m.1. Are you an alien who has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa?
m.2. If you answered “Yes” to question 21.m.1, do you fall within any of the exceptions stated in the instructions?
n. Do you intend to sell or dispose of any firearm(s) listed on this form or any continuation sheet(s) to any person described in questions 21(b)-(l) or to a person described in question 21.m.1 who does not fall within a nonimmigrant alien exception?
Sorry, I took a more international route with the terminology: I meant state as in The State, not an individual state in the USA. Federal laws restricting the purchase of a firearm is IMHO the State interfering with the Second Amendment, if you're taking a severely strict interpretation of it.
So that's my question: is it OK to have the Federal restrictions on what you can buy (e.g. requiring a permit!), and from disallowing Felons? I'm a gun owner myself, but if you go back to what I opened with: the discrepancy between "The state can’t then come through and require a permit to own a gun" and seemingly OK with some Federal oversight is a hangup for a lot of us. If a handful of laws are common sense (no felons), why can't we enact other common sense laws?
Federal laws do not require a permit to buy.
The federal laws are that you answer the questions truthfully and pass the background check.
Permits come into play if you want to carry concealed, which is a different deal. That's handled by the individual states.
Some states don't care at all.
New York had a special permitting system where you had to demonstrate a valid reason for wanting to carry concealed, the Supreme Court struck that down. You can't demand a special reason to exercise a Constitutional right.