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Failing proper royal etiquette
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 01 Dec 2023
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I have never heard anyone being scolded for that but then again this is common sense from where i come from so everyone sorts recipients by importance. Edit: I don't get what is so outrageous e.g. this order boss > colleagues > intern
I am pretty sure that it doesn't make any difference so why is that common sense?
It's just professional respect. Some also call it etiquette.
There are even courses of proper communication that teach that. It's those small things that makes your communication better. So it makes sense.
You could say that not greeting your boss also make no change as it's not needed for work. But to me it seems common sense to greet people i know when i meet them.
Others would call it pettiness
People can be rude in many ways that is true
It's called respect. i guess, It used to be common thing. Some cultures have it even in their languages like Japanese "sempai"
edit : like this boss > colleagues > intern
The down votes aren't from people who don't believe in respect it's from the people who believe it should be boss = colleagues = intern until they prove they deserve otherwise.
Respect is earned not given.
Also seems like people mix race or whatever with professional achievements.
First you prove you can built company or contribute then i will respect you on professional level . Saying that i must respect someone for achievements they don't have, when they just came to company to learn and take time of others on the same level as respecting someone who most likely built the company makes no sense.
Again we are not talking about being rude to newcomers. I'll still hold their door, greet them, have coffee break with them but you can't seriosly except me to act as if their achievement are what they are not.
If they think I don't respect them because they aren't at the front of the CC list, then that is on them.
If they wanted that, they should have put it on the contract. But none of them would do that because then their pettiness is written down.
That is not what i said.
I said it's respectful to do that but have never seen anyone get scolded for it.
Well I don't think the poster is Japanese so it's not really a consideration.
Nationality is beside the point of the post.
Common sense? Certainly not. I never do that. I just add people as they come to my mind. Sometimes I order by how important the mail might be for them (which is roughly the same thing, usually). If I had to work in an environment where people are so self-absorbed that they determine their worth from the order of the names in the carbon copy recipients list of an email, I'd look for another place to work in.
So if you send email to the owner of the company and to your colleagues on same level you put boss at last spot if they come to your mind as last?
BTw read what i wrote, again. There is no mention of it being mandatory in my post . It's similar thing to as when we used to hold door to next person so they don't get smashed by it. edit> I don't get what's so enraging on voluntarily ordering recipient in the mail boss > colleagues > intern.
I would. I certainly wouldn't inspect the order of the email recipients to see if I was given the right amount of "respect". I don't mind at all if someone wants to order the recipients, go ahead. But if someone gets angry at me for not ordering them, they can go get bent. I have better things to do with my time.
You are twisting what i said. Feel free to read it again.
Nothing twisted here.
Putting the people in an arbitrary order in a CC mail is not a sign of disrespect. The people who think it is can get bent.
You are twisting my point 180° . I said it's respectful to do that as sender. You talk about inspecting it as recipient and being rude back at a sender.
Again you change what i said here. You make that i said it's disrespectful not to do that and it should be enforced . I say it's voluntarily and that it is respectful to do that. Also there are more then two states to be in aside from disrespectful vs respectful.
They're saying that as a recipient, the order of names wouldn't matter to them, so they see no point in doing it as a sender.
You see it as a sign of respect, that's fine. Go ahead and order names how you choose. I do not consider it a lack of respect if I don't order them, so I don't.
I understand that, but i said multiple times it's not matter of recipient asking for it.
And I'm not forcing anyone do that. And i sad i have never seen anyone get scolded for it. I just say it's one of the way to show respect. What's so enraging about what i do to show respect for more experienced or senior people ?
Because it is inane bullshit. You receive the email no matter where on the array your fucking name is. It is complete and utter sociopathy to enforce hierarchical chest-thumping on it. Only people who's work is so without value that they need to source it from pissing on others "below" them would care about it.
Where are you getting the forcing part all the time? read damn post top down before you react to what is not written there. Otherwise you will seem like the sociopath enforcing your standards upon others.
You call it "common sense" when it is nothing but nepotism bullshit.
Exactly. That's how I always did it and will keep doing it. Anything else sounds absolutely weird to me.
There kind of is. Because you make it sound like it's not a written rule per se but still very much a social convention that people kind of expect you to follow.
So this is where it gets really weird. What is that even supposed to mean? How is the position in the company relevant to holding doors? If there's an intern behind me, I hold his door open. If it's the boss I do the same. Just like I'd expect both of them to do the same for me and each other. What is your list even supposed to mean? You don't hold doors for interns? Your boss doesn't do it for you? What kind of sociopathic hellhole of a system do you work in? Do you participate in that?
I once worked in a company where my supervisor demanded I'd prepare coffee for him and completely lost it when I wanted to discuss how exactly that was part of my job as a researcher. His point was that his boss had always expected his orders to be followed, no questions asked, and he'd expect the same thing from me. Needless to say I left that fucker as soon as I had another contract available (and never prepared his fucking coffee). This kind of hierarchical thinking may be appropriate for the army but certainly not for an ordinary company.
Asian countries, for instance, have very strict hierarchies. Japan (do a quick search on Japanese work environments for more fun - I especially 'love' the one about women being forced to wear high heels at work, not sure if it was repealed yet) and India (the caste system, 'nuff said) come to mind. I can totally see that sort of shite happening around there. Hell, it might even be considered an honor to serve coffee to your boss there.
Some European countries (mostly those that were under russian influence, but there may be some in the west that I'm not aware of) also suffer from this sort of hierarchical thinking.
No there's nothing mandatory and i said i have never seen anyone get scolded for not doing it. It's just common sense , it;'s being thought in communication courses etc just like when picking up phone you first say greetings, say company name, then your name. Because caller usually knows company and greetings but is having hard time catching your name if it;s first thing to they get "shot" at them upon you answering the phone call.
Last thing is typo from smartphone,, holding door and order of recipient in email doesn't belong to the same sentence. .
It's bewildering to me how you don't see the contradiction here. If you say it's common sense then it's so ingrained into your work culture that it might not be mandatory but still very well part of the unwritten laws governing how you work together. Not being scolded for not following it does not mean that people will not talk about it behind your back. These rules are the foundation of mobbing and bullying. None of that is an official rule but it can very well be considered mandatory if you say it's common sense to follow it.
I was never taught any of this and I also don't do that. Company name first? Never did that and never had anybody mention to me that I should change my behaviour in that regard.
Everything you say sounds weird as fuck to me. Would you mind telling me what country you're from?
Sure, why not? I think the disconnect is the people who think it is silly don't attach any importance to the order. So asking, "Would you put the most important person last?" is a non-starter as the thinking is that the CC field ends up as a list is an artifact of how email works and isn't imbued with a sense of ordering or ranking of importance. The ordering of the list could be a indicative of who came to mind first, how your email contacts are ordered, or even how a policy is written but not indicative of who you think is most important or senior.
So you say we should order the list but only the wrong way to do it is to order it according to the achievements or importance of the recipient?
The point is that order doesn’t matter. The TO is the main persons who need to see it and the CC is for anyone who needs to be aware.
No. I'm saying if someone doesn't think the order matters or signifies anything of importance then there is no wrong way to do it, there is no right way to do it, there are just ways to do it (of which I mentioned a couple)... because the order doesn't matter.
Yes
Wrong. Boss ALWAYS goes in the “To” field regardless of who the message is addressed to. You don’t want them to receive a copy of the email rather than the original! /s
I know, boss. My bad. Will be careful next time. /s
Before this thread I’ve never heard of this concept. I have been working in tech for 30 years and was using email before 90% of the planet. No, this is not normal.