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this post was submitted on 10 Dec 2023
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Motherfucker wants a police state, but one he and his buddies are totally not accountable in, fuck this geriatric wannabe dictator.
Of all the 60+ million people who intend to vote for him next year, this ridiculous rhwtoric will dissuade exactly none of them.
Meanwhile the left needs to be cajoled and won over and made to feel special just to get them to the fucking polling station.
BuT BiDeN nEeDs To EaRn My VoTe!
If we manage to avoid a fascist takeover, it will be in spite of the naive progressive idealogues who think they have the privilege to vote their conscience.
It's the political reality that you need the votes of people to your left who you hate. Get to it.
I'm already voting for Biden. You'll scream at me anyway because you don't want to treat voters you need as though you need their votes.
I don't hate them. I said certain ones are naive (aggravatingly so, to clarify further). Too many people talk and act as if they can choose this time and keep that ability to choose next time.
If you have the sense to see what you stand to lose in this dumb FPTP system, then we are in the same boat. I understand the desire to have your elected leaders actually do something progressive, or doing something that makes you truly proud of them.
But as someone said, voting is a chess move, not a love letter.
in the time that I've been voting... the US has only slid right. The democrats have done exceedingly little to halt that.
Rear guard delaying actions, to use the military parlance, do not win wars. Biden is moderate only in consideration that the GOP are so much further to the right as to actively embrace fascism. We cannot keep acting as we always have and expect something to magically fix itself. So now is the time to start changing how we vote and the people we send to be voted for.
it's really that simple.
It's not. We are four years too late. We need to prevent a fascist takeover, then try to make progress.
That is what they said last time, too. Complete with a promise of “one term”
Why should anyone believe you (and Biden) this time?
What alternative do you have? What viable plan can you enact to change the likely outcome and still avoid fascism?
And the time before that, and the time before that….. it’s literally what they say every four years.
I don't know about that, I've been paying attention since 2004ish and I don't remember Romney being portrayed as a destroyer of democracy, his big thing was "binders of women" and tying his dog to the roof of his car... Lol Same with McCain, our biggest issue with McCain was Palin and the absolute joke of a person she is with all the newspapers she definitely totally reads.
Don't lie to me. I know how you've responded to me in the past when I didn't include that I was voting for Biden in my comment.
I very much doubt that.
And the move expected of the progressives you hate is always "forfeit."
And you need the votes of people to your right who you hate. That's the political reality of it. It's a two way street, and both progressives and moderates see it as a one way.
I get to see that a lot because I have the same goals and desires of progressives (which is why I consider myself one), but I think we should achieve them with plans grounded in reality that are based on systems and practices we already know work. That aligns more with how the moderates do things. In short, I just want to reach the outcome in the best way possible, without any unpleasant surprises.
I expect something snarky in response to that, but I hope I'm wrong. Because as much as you may dislike me I'm the vote, directly to your right, that you need. Do you believe your words to apply fairly to everyone, or just the groups you dislike?
Edit: And just to be clear, I really see no reason for us to be adversarial. I want the same goals as you at the end of the day, and given you're voting for Biden, I think our thoughts on the methods aren't all that different either.
The party has you covered. They have spent the past half a century moving to the right to appeal to the centrists and try, Chamberlain-like, to appease Republicans. If the party ever does something that its pampered right flank dislikes in the slightest, then I'll start talking about how we need to keep their votes.
The last time that happened was when the voters overcame the party's attempt to coronate Clinton and nominated Obama instead. The Clinton wing of the party formed a PAC to try to elect McCain and Palin. Obama, always eager to capitulate to his right, actually tried to get their votes back by selecting a moderate as his VP pick. Clinton selected the anti-choice Tim Kaine as her VP pick as a "fuck you, you'll vote for me cause you gotta" to the left. Biden chose the war on drugs DA as his VP.
The party does what you want already. You have a party that represents you. The left has a party that opposes them and orders them to vote for them anyway.
I already told you, I sit between progressives and moderates because I have the same goals as progressives and the same methods as moderates (or at least what would be considered a slower and measured process).
You've also avoided my question, I'm not talking about who the party appeals to here. There's already plenty of discussion about what moderates do. I want to know what you think about how progressives should build coalitions. Believe it or not, I want to see progressives win. I'm asking how they should appeal to moderates and earn their votes for a general election once they win a primary -- without completely capitulating to the center.
Progressives and Democrat moderates/establishment need each other to win elections, and as you've aptly pointed out, they don't value that. There's going to come a time in the next few decades where the dynamics flip though, and progressives have more power. How should we act differently then -- if at all? It's perfectly valid to say they can reap what they sow and also be taken for granted. I just think there's a real opportunity in cooperation instead to have a strong electoral alliance.
If it isn't clear, I have no desire to be adversarial with you, just genuine discussion. I don't agree with everything you say necessarily, but there's enough I agree with on some level that my being a dick is getting in the way of learning your perspective. And along those lines -- sorry that I've been a dick to you, especially with how I ignored you saying you'll vote for Biden just so I could make witty arguments and quips. That was disrespectful and also utterly counterproductive.
The latter is designed to make sure the former never happens.
If Democrats do not alter course, they will alienate enough of the votes that they needed and Republicans will win before that happens. Maybe not this election, maybe not the next one. But our current messaging won't succeed forever, and it won't carry us to the future in which progressives have any power. And we know what Republicans' plans are. There won't be meaningful elections after that.
There won't be a then if the party maintains its current heading
It certainly is. They should sow other crops.
That opportunity exists today, and I fear it will not exist in the future. Centrists refuse to seize it, and progressives are not in a position to. If you want magnanimity, lead by example. Like this:
This shows a capacity for introspection and humility that centrists are often too proud or antagonistic to display. Apology accepted.
And we’re the problem for warning them about that. It’s hilarious. It’s only working because of how horrible trump is. If the pubies trotted any one less horrible, we’d loose.
They'd rather have Trump than appeal to the left.
If Republicans nominate someone other than Trump, he'll run as a third party candidate and split the "stupid bigot" vote. It's the best we could hope for, considering that Democrats' only message right now is "fuck you, you're voting for us." Any Democrat who doesn't have a compelling reason to vote in the Democratic Party primaries for lower offices than president should be voting in the Republican presidential primaries.
fair point. hypothetically, if trump didn't exist (lets say he's directly convicted of insurrection, or his second impeachment had seen him convicted; and directly barred from office ever again) Biden would loose to any other candidate
Yeah, probably.
You know, that makes you a conservative right? Slowing progress and social change is the heart of conservatism. (In reality republican “conservatives” are in fact regressive- which is why they got rid of RvW, want to get rid of Obama care, and deregulate every regulation curtailing corporates.)
Just something for you to think about.
look, you can say what you want about progressives. Just know, I think you believe you have the privilege of dictating who I vote for... which is not democracy, and you can go fuck off with trump (who, believe it or not, shares that belief.)
You want people to vote for your candidate? you should maybe not piss them off first. Besides which, right now, it's the primary and not even about Biden vs Trump. for the DNC, it's a question of which candidate is the best.
Interestingly enough, the DNC is actively subverting the primary elections in every state they can. They don’t want primary elections because they know how incredibly unpopular Biden is, and yet they insist he is the only one who can beat Trump. I disagree emphatically - Biden is the only one who can lose to him, and we are hurtling towards that terrible outcome due to corrupt establishment politics.
Well, I wouldn't say Biden is the only one who can loose.... There's others right up there with him in that. but those ones are all basically the same, so I don't know that it makes all that much in difference.
I wouldn't be surprised to find they've always meddled and outright cheated in primaries to keep progressives out.
Yeah I suspect there is a long and storied history of this happening. If there’s one thing all the corporate shills in DC can agree on, it’s that progressives represent a threat to their very way of life. Imagine, politicians who would fight for regular people, instead of corporate interests. O, the humanity…
Get better messaging, then. Screaming at them ain't gonna work.
Scream at me for pointing it out. It beats trying to get votes.
(I'm voting for Biden. "Not Trump" has convinced me. It won't convince all the voters you'll need to win, and you'd rather lose than stop punching left.)
It seems like it convinced enough last time around.
In concert with campaign promises that haven't borne fruit, mainly due to Democrats getting in their own way. Now we're down to just "not Trump". I think relying on that message alone is doomed to fail. If you don't think we need better messaging or even additional messaging, fine.
But don't blame people to whom you are hostile when they don't enthusiastically vote like you want.
Imagine being upset that your candidate has to actually have good policy proposals that voters support in order to get votes.
I mean, I feel like most people are pretty upset about it. I'm pretty upset I have to vote for Biden in order to vote against Trump, but I'm still gonna do it.
It's easy, the Right are fanatics doing fanatic things, the Left haven't had something to be "fanatical" about since Obama, Biden has done a great job for the most part, obviously with some disappointment here and there, no presidency is perfect, but Old man Biden just doesn't excite people, and it's only Trump keeping him running, if Don the Con would go to prison and stop running we'd be able to hopefully elect somebody under 60, and most of those Republican candidates are just as scary as Trump, and bless Chris Christie and Liz Chaney for finally committing political suicide by fighting against the fascism in their party, especially after enabling it for so long.
And only when it was no longer going to benefit them.