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this post was submitted on 13 Dec 2023
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I may get down voted for this, but there needs to be a distinction between male and female athletes somewhere. There's biological differences in muscle mass and trans women have a biological advantage. I don't necessarily agree with fine, but I do think that cis female sports should have some protections too.
Trans woman have lower muscle mass and strength then average cis females after being HRT.
Not always the case.
So we're protecting the system against the outliers? So we're blocking naturally muscular or otherwise more athletic cis girls from playing? Really tall basketball players? Runners who are just naturally faster? How do you judge they fall too far outside the median range?
Or have you given this no thought and you just think boy things are for boys and girl things for girls and you stopped learning at age 3?
Not to mention that these are already outliers within outliers. Trans people make up like 0.01% of the population, and how many of those are not only still in middle/high school, but also play competitive sports? We're probably talking a couple dozen people total.
I never said that.
What were you saying then? What was your point of saying "not always the case."?
I'm saying that its not always the case that the doctor will tune it so that it could be considered fair. The doctor coule use less HRT in order to give the athlete an unfair advantage.
Is this scientifically verified? If it is, I'd like to see the study. And what is the study's demographic? Because we're only talking about athletics so the demo should be trans athletes vs cis female athletes.
https://academic.oup.com/jes/article/5/Supplement_1/A792/6241278
Reading into this, my main points of concern are that there is only a population of 8 in each group. That's far from clinically significant, but if we pretend for the sake of argument that it is a clinically significant population there's still the fact that TW have more muscle mass and outperformed the CW in their handgrip strength despite lower strength/FFM due to the extra muscle mass. The study authors believe that this is because a difference in oxidative processes in the muscle but don't go on to elaborate their hypothesis so it may allow some TW to take advantage of their extra muscle mass when in competition and other hormones flood the CNS/bloodstream.
My hypothesis would be that adrenaline temporarily helps to overcome the suppression of muscle performance due to hormone therapy. Note that this is my hypothesis and would need to be studied. Maybe I am wrong, but in my clinical experience the observable results run counter to the small scope of this particular study.
I do think more studies need to be done. My opinion is if a cis woman would be barred for PCOS then barring trans women is fine
Look at you, attacking the source before you even see it.
Totally unbiased though.
I what way did I attack it? I asked to see the source and expressed my concern with possible points of scrutiny as it's being presented in the argument at hand. I'm pro-LGBT rights.
What are we protecting women’s sports from? It’s weird, I hear more about how transgender women are a threat to women’s sports than I do about actual women’s sports. It seems like drama over a trans women being on a sports team is more important than the actual sports. I very rarely see headlines about women’s sports. I’m not into sports at all, but I can name Kyrie Irving, Draemond Green and a fuckton of other men’s basketball players. I can’t think of any women.
It’s just very difficult to take these arguments about “protecting” women’s sports seriously when they only seem to matter when it’s time to use them as a cudgel. I wish the energy would be redirected - advocating for equal pay, more coverage, showing up to local games. Title 9 be damned, the girls volleyball team doesn’t have half the budget of the boys football. A handful of trans kids playing is such a non-issue compared with all of the other shit going on in the failing education system. The Olympics have allowed trans women to play for ages, and no one really gave a crap until trans people became the new target.
Why do children play sports in school? My understanding was that it was for character building - developing discipline, communication skills, etc etc. The competitive aspect is important yes, but at the end of the day the purpose is to help develop the child. There is harm done in denying a child the opportunity to participate in sports - there are lots of kids who only come to school because of sports. Trans kids need a coach they can talk with and a team they can feel a part of too.
From being pushed out of their own sport by athletes with biological advantages of being born male. I wish that wasn't the case, but there's already been documented cases of male to female trans athletes taking already scarce opportunities away from cis female athletes. Lia Thomas went from being ranked #462 competing in men's swimming to #1 in women's when she switched. Now it's obviously been bastardized by shit stain human beings, anti-trans rights voices, and homophobes but if you look at it in a vacuum there's legitimate concerns to be addressed. College scholarships being awarded to the best athletes. Endorsement deals. Records. Championships. I think Michael Phelps addresses it the best.
And also Nancy Hogshead-Makar supporting trans participation
However, I'm not sure that there is an easy way to define what their sex-linked advantage is nor a way to measure it's recession throughout the transitioning process and it would be unwise to encourage emotionally and mentally immature children that have not yet entered puberty to make a permanent decision on transitioning. Not to mention the gradient of transgender processes and the extent to which a person even wants to go. Not every trans female takes hormones.
Not being able to name female athletes is a you and (to a lesser degree) media problem. They don't get as much press, but there's plenty of household female athlete names. Venus and Serena Williams, Brittany Grinder, Katie Ledecky, Megan Rapinoe, Alex Morgan, Yani Tseng, Mia Hamm, Jackie Joyner-Kersee, Simone Biles, Lindsey Vonn, Marta, Nancy Kerrigan....probably some other huge names I'm totally missing.
Since you're not really a sports person maybe you don't see it how other highschool and beyond athletes see it. School sports is just as much about competition and championships as it is character building. It isn't only about winning and losing. I want to make that clear. Sports are used to build character sure, but it's usually being taught on the back of the competitive aspect. Being a good teammate, working together as a team, etc in order to beat the opponents or improve yourself. And I'm not saying that this girl should be denied her right to play, just that she should unfortunately be required to participate in the men's bracket of competition. She may not perform well, but that's the reality of competition. It's no different than the chubby boy sitting on the bench until the last 3 minutes of a blowout game.
Until we can come up with a more scientific and proven methodology for these individuals to compete in a fair and inclusive environment, I think that's the reality of the situation. Not all societal problems can or should be dealt with by flipping a switch and adjusting after the culture shock. I wish that were the case, but it's going to do a lot more harm than good. The first step in my opinion is to develop a coed class of sports in some fashion that allows anyone to participate while still keeping competitive sex-based sports.
I bet you can't name 3 more examples beyond the one in your comment.
It's such a non-issue. Trans people make up, what, 0.01% of the population? And what % of those are in competitive sports? People need to get a grip.
Here's a few that was able to find in this article.
Some became National champions as individuals and as part of a team. I'm sure there's some that cause more controversy than others, but the point is that this is a relatively new scenario that's only going to be more common as time passes. Already there's a statistically significant amount of competitions that have been won by transgender athletes.
Gonna start my response with this as I know most people will see a long comment and won't read it, and this might be the most important takeaway: a website about LGBTQ+ issues in sports seemed interesting, but the fact that the entire article seemed to be about counting and naming every single trans athlete they can find, I decided to do a quick search to find out what this site is about.
Sure enough:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outsports?wprov=sfla1
So either you're aware that you're purposely misleading people by using disingenuous, bad faith sources, or you didn't do 30 seconds of research before posting what is clearly anti-trans agitprop.
Do better.
Now that's out of the way:
You have (perhaps purposely) misconstrued my request. I wasn't asking for trans athletes, I was asking for trans athletes that have "dominated" in their respective sport.
And what do you know, even the article in the bigoted rag you linked to says,
I can tell you with 100% certainty that, if they knew about more than 3, they would have been listed in that article. I have zero doubt in my mind.
You said:
You were asking for 3 more examples and I provided them. So now you're trying to move the goalposts.
It may be a rag, but I only used it as a source for fact checking. I'm not going to source check something that's easily verified. I went to the first source that presented a list and a brief summary of their athletic activity. The whole "do better" rhetoric is such a bore. Do better at what? I've already mentioned in other comments that I'm pro LGBT rights and actively help athletes that are openly gay and/or gender dysphoric. Instead of attacking fact with empty rebuttals, maybe you should "do better".
Making excuses for basing your beliefs on obvious propaganda. Pretty sad, dude. Especially since you know you're doing it. You should be embarrassed.
What about cis women with heightened testosterone levels then? They won't exactly be beholden to strict requirements like a trans woman with regulated testosterone will.
There's biological variance at play in all of sports, if you start going there, you have to start asking yourself what your actual goal is? Is it protecting minorities and disadvantaged people? Or is it something akin to weight classes? Or.. what?
Either way you put it, either you allow trans women in women's sports, or you rework the system to be based on your biology in some way, separated into classes like testosterone level, body weight, how tal you are.. etc. Otherwise you will either be inconsistent in your ruling, or exclude some cis women which is what you specifically tried to avoid in the first place.
The simple solution is to have 1 division for good players and another division for everyone else.
They have that. It's called high school sports. And then afterwards, intramural sports. For competitive teams there's private clubs and college/professional leagues.
Ok.
Why? What do you imagine is the harm caused by allowing all women to participate?
See my other reply
I don't care what bigots think though