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this post was submitted on 30 Dec 2023
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GenZedong
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Neither side intentionally targets civilians.
War is hell. But Russia, as the aggressor in this war, is the one in the wrong here.
Nah Ukraine started it back in 2014 with the coup and the subsequent oppression of Russian speaking population of the Donbass
This didn't start in 2022
Don't forget the blatent violation of both minsk accords and their statement the negotiations where in bad faith
Oppressed how?
Across all sides (Civilian, Military, Ukranian and Russian), an estimated 150-200K people have died and half a million wounded since the start of the invasion in 2022.
What kind of oppression could possibly been having taken place that necessitates such an escalation?
They where none stop shelling donbass, and took away the rights of the Russian speaking population many times, they also flagrantly violated both minsk accords.
Also you are convenently forgetting that Russia has REPEATEDLY offered peace treaties, negotiations for peace treaties and cease fires so they can negotiate a peace treaty starting from week 1, that Ukraine (Became the US told them to) Refuses every time.
Yes, it so happens a civil war was being fought there.
But the majority of the fighting ended with the second Minsk accords. After 2017 on average only about a dozen people died a year from combat actions. So there couldn't have been much shelling going on in 2022.
How does a dozen or two deaths a year warrant an escalation to a hundred thousand deaths a year?
Which rights, when did this happen? I'm honestly curious abuot this.
Both sides did that. A lot.
But what does that have to do with Russia's 2022 invasion? Putin himself said that Russia would not get involved in the enforcement of the Minsk accords because it was an internal Ukrainian matter.
Because Russia wants to not only keep the land they've invaded but also dictate the way Ukraine conducts it's diplomatic relations with other nations. Ukraine is fighting for it's sovereignty here. Russia is trying to take that away.
no I am talking about the shellings POST accord 1 and then agian POST accord 2.
I have not seen where Putin said he would not enforce it, however 1) Russia is a signitary so they have some enforcement ability, and second the Russian Speaking Minority did request aid
the first one I can think of, and this is not all of it, but Ukraine banned the use of Russian in all of Ukrane, (I mean if shelling homes after 2 peace treaties was not enough)
And at the start they where not wanting to keep the DPR and LPR, but instead get them recognized as independent nations, it was not untill after the votes of the DPR and LPR that they where planning on keeping them, also the USA and the EU are already controling and dictating Ukraines forign policy, so by that metric they are not sovern any way.
4 if you are refering to the not joining NATO both NATO and Ukraine had agreed that that wold never be an option, after the fall of the berlin wall, NATO garenteed Gorbie, that they would not expand past their current boarders, Russia is fighting an exsistintal threat, the aliance's express purpous is anti-russia pro USA, and there is farther proof, by every time that Russia (or the USSR) has asked to join they have been rejected out of hand. Russia is not trying to take away any sovernty
Here's a documentary about it that leaves out most of the blood and gore that you could easily find if you looked: Donbass (2016). You will see a bit of people being burned to death in this documentary and some other injuries but not to the extent you could find in other videos of the time.
Here's a scene of the burning of the trade union building in 2014. Russian speakers were protesting regarding the repeal of a law which protected Russian as a minority language (or as the Ukrainian former soldier in the video states, they were "contesting a ban on the Russian language in Ukraine.") The protestors hid in the trade union building when Ukrainian right wing nationalists showed up. Eventually, the Ukrainian nationalists set fire to the building and many of the protesters burned to death, with those who jumped out of the windows getting beaten to death by the Ukrainian nationalists. (See also: "Burnt Alive in Odessa").
If you can stomach seeing bodies blown up in the streets, limbs removed, dead babies, and footage of people dying, there are other documentaries around which show it. It's not hard to find footage like this from 2014 onwards. E.g., Result of a 2014 shelling by Ukrainian military (CW: Numerous dead bodies); More aftermath of a shelling (CW: Extremely graphic, numerous mutilated bodies, and footage of a person dying).
You can make up your own mind about the conflict's particulars as you learn about it, but it's a mistake to ignore events happening before 2022 or treat them as insignificant.