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More Brits than ever say Brexit was wrong choice: YouGov survey
(www.reuters.com)
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this post was submitted on 18 Jul 2023
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UK Politics
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For the sake of argument then let's revisit the immigration question. Under EU (and I assume EFTA) rules we wouldn't be able to apply an immigration system that applied to everyone equally because we would (and did) have to apply a separate more permissive one for EU citizens. Why should an otherwise equally qualified computer programmer from, let's say, Peru be at a disadvantage compared to an equally qualified computer programmer from France? Outside the EU we can apply the same rules regardless of where the applicant is from ergo sovereignty, no?
If we need more computer programmers or more lorry drivers or fewer life coaches we are able to flex rules around this so that demand can be filled. If that's by computer programmers from Peru or lorry drivers from Bulgaria or construction workers from Indonesia that doesn't matter. So there is that argument.
It's a proper shame that this government hasn't published a clear and understandable industrial strategy so that these decisions can be seen in full context for five or more years in the future. Instead what people seem obsessed about is reductions in immigration rather than a more nuanced take on fairness to fill capacity / need.
Except we could. Under the EU each nation has the options to limit entry in an emergency. And just like when the UK was one of the few nations not to make new eastern block members wait until their nation had evened out fiscally. We have never chosen to implement them when others have.
We always had more control over EU imergration then our gov was willing to use. So any more control over that is nothing but a mythical idea we as a nation will not use. (as you yourself said).
So while leaving the EU and EFTA may give us the option to make perminant rules. Doing so is no more realistic than the need to defend ourselves from Dragons.
PS my question was
Sovereignty only counts as an argument if we gain it via EEA membership. And these examples don't. As I said I am biased so don't see it as an argument to leave the EU.
But my point was, I am willing to accept your original point that the issue is not leaving the EU. But EFTA. If you can prove, we gain it some way as an EEA member.
Sorry for the confusion.
Forgive me but that's not the same as having fair and equal immigration rules for all nations.
Hasn't Sunak just exactly done this? He's exercised control over immigration for the purpose of allowing more construction workers into the country to respond to demand. It doesn't matter where they are from as lonyas it is on an equal basis and demand based. You couldn't do that in the EU.
Hey you leave the Welsh out of this! 😄
Oh sorry I wasn't arguing about this. I was merely providing an example about your challenge with sovereignty. I agree leaving the EU and joining EFTA won't achieve this.
No under the EU we had the same legal right to police our borders. We just had to allow EU citizens through.
So EU citizens were not dumb enough to risk their lives. But even now, if you can take a privrate boat from France. You have a right to enter the UK. You just have to radio the coast guard for customs, etc. Nothing Sunak is doing now was more of an issue during EU membership. We were just able to convince France to do some of the work.
We were never part of the Schengen Agreement. How you are legally allowed to enter the nation has always been under UK control.
Again, forgive me I think you're conflating immigration (staying in the country) with entering the country.
My main point is, to your point about what can the UK do outside the EU that it couldn't inside, that it can apply an immigration system equally to all applicants that flexs with the demands of the UK at the time. By your own replies you acknowledge that it couldn't do that because it had to give special treatment to EU citizens.
And the small boats are entirely about entering the country.
People on small boats are not EU citizens. So we are entirely in control of the immigration part. And were during our EU membership.
My point was No to your question that leaving the EU allowed Sunak to act on it. He already had all the rights he does now with relation to his actions.
Sorry I'm lost now are we talking about the same thing still? I'm specifically talking about creating an immigration system that doesn't discriminate between EU / other and that can flex depending on demand.
It sounds like you're talking about small boat crossing which isn't immigration.