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this post was submitted on 22 Jan 2024
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The mask doesn't prevent the spread, it just slows it. Look at the data from the various states about the effectiveness of lockdowns and mask mandates, they had a number of total cases per capita, they just had a flatter curve.
Pushing for masks made a ton of sense in the first couple years of the pandemic when hospitals were getting overrun, but wearing a mask today doesn't really prevent anything. COVID is already endemic, so the best you're going to do is increase the time between infections a bit.
When I got COVID last, I was on vacation and had to get home, so I tested myself as soon as I was able, self-quarantined as best I could, wore an N95 mask when I couldn't, and put off unnecessary trips to the store. Once I had recovered, I went back to not wearing a mask. That's how we should treat it. I do the same for colds, the flu, etc. I'm not wearing a mask unless I'm either sick or likely to be directly in contact with those who are at risk.
what's the mechanism by which masks slow the spread?
Really looking forward to this response if it ever comes.
We'll you see the virus has just struggle through the fibers. It's all very obvious you just have to engage in idiot thought processes.
You know, not to belittle anyone or anything. I would hate the moronic idiots to think I was making fun of them.
I'm too tired to even be mean about it anymore.
it's exactly what you hope it is
Haha, thanks for the update.
Catching water particles, which carries the virus.
N95 masks do a really good job (something like 80% reduction in transmission), but most people wear those typical surgical masks (or worse, a single-layer cloth mask with almost no protection) that merely reduces transmission by something like half. If you're wearing a mask the whole day, it'll get saturated and become far less effective. So, 50% fewer particles best case (average for a full day is likely way worse) doesn't sound like a good tradeoff to me.
That said, if I'm going to an area with at-risk people, I'll use the best mask available while I'm there. But for all-day usage, no, it's not going to be that effective on net.
so it slows the spread by...preventing transmission of the virus
fucking fabulous job, my dude
It doesn't prevent transmission, it reduces transmission. You'll have similar total numbers of infected people, it just flattens the curve so people get sick slower.
I totally agree that wearing masks has its place, but it's not going to meaningfully reduce the spread, it's already endemic so you're likely going to get it regardless.
What definition are you using for "meaningfully"?
As in, move toward eradication/containment.
That's just... not happening. So if there's a big wave of COVID, you could delay getting it toward the end of the wave, but you'll probably get it. If you're vaxxed and boosted (and I am), symptoms will probably be lessened, but you'll probably still get it. Just like the common cold or the flu, you'll probably get it every year or two regardless of what you do (outside of total quarantine).
The good news is that it seems to be getting more mild, or at least that's my anecdotal experience. I first got COVID just before vaccines were available for my age bracket (I think spring of 2021), and I had a crazy fever, hacking cough, and body soreness and was essentially confined to my bed for two days, and had really nasty phlegm for weeks afterward. The second time was fall 2023 (got sick the last day of a cruise), and I felt dizzy (probably from the boat), mild to moderate fever, headache, runny nose, and low energy, but otherwise generally able to get around, and symptoms were largely gone within a week. Part of that is that I had the vaccine and previous natural immunity, but it was a completely different strain with different symptoms. I've heard similar things from co-workers and friends in my area (each had the 2020/2021 strain and then whatever went around last year).
It makes sense to take precautions when sick, around those who are sick, and when cases spike, but that's mostly to slow the spread to help out hospitals, but that also likely means it sticks around longer (i.e. instead of running out of steam in 2 months, it'll run for 6 months). So wearing masks everyday makes little sense unless you work in a cancer ward or something.
Really seems like a 50-80% is meaningful, but for whatever reason you're tying yourself in knots trying to justify not liking wearing a mask.
It's like saying there's no point in stopping smoking when you've been diagnosed with lung cancer because there's ONLY a 30-40% risk reduction of dying. Or maybe refusing to wash your hands because every cold or flu you've gotten has been 'not that bad'. Except in this case, the risk reduction is for everyone around you instead of just yourself.
Like, whatever you want to do bud, but you're not convincing anyone that basic hygiene while you're sick isn't beneficial.
Sure, 50-80% would be great if that's the average case. But it's not, that's the best case, and apples if the mask:
But if you're wearing a mask all day, it's not going to be fresh, will likely not fit properly the whole time, and probably not be very high quality. Most of the masks I saw at the height of COVID were crappy single-layer cloth masks with effectiveness in the single digits.
So your average mask is probably 5-25% effective on net if worn all day.
That's why I say we shouldn't be wearing masks all day, we should only wear them when it's important. That way, people are more likely to use a fresh mask and ensure it fits properly. I can put up with wearing a high quality mask for a few hours or days, but if you ask me to do that every single day, I'm going to get lazy, and lazy reduces effectiveness.
At the height of COVID, medical experts wanted to slow the spread to preserve hospital capacity, so even single digit effectiveness was fine. But these days, there's not much point to such low numbers of effectiveness, so mask-wearing shouldn't be an everyday thing, but instead something you do when it's especially important. Make it a normal thing, just not a routine.
That's a completely separate thing though.
Masks prevent one on one transmission. Washing your hands prevents many to many transmission. Surfaces are touched by more people than you'll directly interact with in a day. So even if it has a lower per-contact effectiveness, you have orders of magnitude more contact with contaminated surfaces than infected people.
The average mask wearer marginally reduces their transmission risk, especially if you consider that most people aren't infected. The average hand washer dramatically reduces their transmission risk because they're washing off other germs they've picked up (i.e. you don't need to be sick to spread disease through touch).
I don't even need to read the rest of your comment, this is inane.
Do you understand how respiratory infections spread? Unless you're sneezing or coughing, it only really affects people in you immediate vicinity. Hence the one on one description.
Contact spread (e.g. what washing hands prevents) impacts anyone who touches the same surface. That's a much bigger pool of people than would be in my immediate vicinity.
You're almost there bud, just keep it goin'
Not sure what you're getting at. I'm saying it doesn't make sense to wear a mask all day every day when you're healthy. It's just nonsensical.
If you're sick or around sick people, sure, but not if you're healthy.
Almost like more than one person breathes the air in a room, just like 'surfaces are touched by more people than you'll directly interact with in a day'. If you're on an airplane or working as a doctor seeing sick people, it makes sense to wear a mask even if you aren't displaying symptoms, because masks reduce the transmission of airborne viruses, both for you and for the people around you. For the same reason washing your hands is efficacious when touching lots of public surfaces, wearing a mask is efficacious when breathing the same air as lots of potentially sick and at-risk individuals, especially if you are doing so frequently.
I'm not concerned with what your personal practices are with your mask-wearing, but you've been downplaying the efficacy of masks this entire thread and then backsliding when you meet resistance. You're making up rational based on "wearing a mask is inconvenient", vibes-based logic. You don't think masks are worth the inconvenience for healthcare workers, and I'm saying they objectively and meaningfully reduce the spread, and whatever perceived inconvenience you feel is worth it if it prevents transmission in high traffic and high-risk environments.
Sure, but air is also continuously recycled in a building. The CDC recommends 5 air replacements per hour, and most commercial buildings are above that.
Agreed. But that's not what I'm talking about. I explicitly said I would wear a mask if I'm sick, in close proximity to someone who is known to be sick, or in close proximity to someone who is known to be at significant risk of becoming sick.
All of that is completely within CDC recommendations.
Most people are not around sick or at risk people all day, so wearing a mask is pretty silly for them. The additional protection against someone who might be sick in public is minimal (you probably won't get COVID from a chance encounter with an asymptomatic carrier), especially if you've already been wearing it all day.
Handwashing helps prevent accidental contact, so it's highly recommended regardless. You should be washing your hands consistently throughout the day even if you don't work with sick or at risk people.
Alternative perspective: you've been consistently misinterpreting what I've said.
I cited efficacy numbers, which are based on close proximity to a symptomatic individual. That's not the situation we're discussing, we're talking about all day use of masks even when not in the presence of a symptomatic carrier. You're getting at best 50% reduced risk of infection, probably much lower. If you're if you're in a commercial building with typical ventilation, asymptomatic carriers will have their breath sucked into the ventilation fairly quickly (typical office is probably ~5 cycles per hour, a hospital is probably more frequent). The risk for infection from proximity to someone who is merely a carrier is already quite low, and adding a mask doesn't meaningfully increase your protection.
That's why I'm opposed to all-day wearing of masks for most people. It's not going to meaningfully reduce your risk of infection. If you're around known sick or at-risk people, absolutely wear a mask. If you're not (i.e. you're part of the majority), wearing a mask is essentially pointless.
I do, just not for every role of healthcare worker. Healthcare workers should wear one when in the presence of someone who is sick or at risk. If they're working with sick people, wear a mask. If they're doing well checks, routine procedures, etc, I don't see a point.
In other words, dress appropriately for the work you're doing. The CDC has reasonable recommendations here, and I follow them myself, and sometimes go beyond. I don't follow the "always wear a mask" mantra though; that's not what the CDC recommends, and that's not what any healthcare professional I've ever talked to recommends.
I feel like I've been very consistent here. Wear a mask if you're around sick or at risk people, don't bother if you're not (unless there's a local spike in cases or something that changes local guidance, but that should go without saying).
Either you've misread the context of the post or you've intentionally jumped into a conversation about healthcare workers wearing protective gear and steered it towards a general 'i find masks uncomfortable so why bother' discussion. The reason you've been so aggressively downvoted is because the post is speaking specifically about preventing exposure to at-risk individuals in a healthcare context, and yet you've decided this is actually about you not wanting to wear a mask for your own benefit.
The only thing you've done consistently is downplay the role masks play in reducing viral transmission, while constantly complaining how inconvenient they are.
Good thing nobody is advocating that here, you dense motherfucker.
Here's the original comment that I replied to:
That comment got upvotes. I agreed with it, and gave more context. Here's my comment in full:
I'm commiserating with healthcare professionals. They should only be expected to wear masks if they're directly working with sick or at risk people. There are a ton of healthcare jobs where that's absolutely not the case.
The only criticism I have for the nurse/doctor in that OP is that they didn't practice social distancing with the person wearing a mask. I don't think they should be expected to wear a mask for their whole shift, only in the moments where they're interacting with sick or at-risk people.
I only brought that up in context. If you look, it wasn't until multiple back and forth comments that I bothered.
A healthcare professional isn't going to prevent all transmission of disease in a hospital or clinic, even if they mask up all day every day. So I'm absolutely okay with them being comfortable most of the time so they don't burn out on their job.
That's all I was trying to convey.
I'll highlight the part of your comment that was the issue:
The comment you responded to didn't make the unsympathetic choice yours did; that wearing a mask was for your protection, as opposed to the protection of the patients. That is why yours received consternation and the other less-so.
It's absolutely sympathetic, I'm being sympathetic toward the healthcare worker. It would really suck to have to wear a mask all day every day, so I completely understanding not doing that when the stakes are low.
The healthcare worker is likely to get sick regardless, though wearing a mask might delay things a bit. Why make the healthcare worker wear a mask when the risk is incredibly low? That's just going to lead to burnout.
I used myself as an example because I obviously cannot speak for other healthcare workers, but the whole intent was to sympathize with them.
It's not about the healthcare worker, it's about the PATIENT. Jesus.
And that's the problem!
It seems people are so entitled that they expect health care professionals to significantly inconvenience themselves for a marginal reduction in transmission risk. That's just ridiculous, I'd rather leave it up the medical professionals who are trained on such things to decide when a mask is and isn't necessary. CDC guidance for medical professionals does not recommend wearing masks for every shift (though it explains that's still safe), it only recommends wearing masks while in proximity to at risk individuals. Here's the CDC guidance for healthcare workers (source control means wearing a mask):
Consider reading the full thing. Also note that policies can vary by state, county, and even medical center. But the CDC guidance at least matches what I've been saying, the recommendation is to wear a mask when sick or in close contact with someone who is sick (there are provisions for other scenarios as well).
But my point is, health care providers know the recommendations and policies, and they are most likely following them. So give your care provider a break, or ask nicely for them to mask up if it really bothers you.
Antivaxxers are getting dumber.
I'm absolutely pro-vaccines. I get every vaccine that's available. I'm not sure what your point is, I agree that being anti-vaccine is stupid.
Did you know staying on your side of the road while driving doesn't prevent accidents, it only delays them?
Did you know strawmen are fire hazards?
If you want a driving analogy, here you go. It's like fast starts and stops between lights vs slower starts and stops, and everyone is going to the same place. Either way you'll get to your destination in a similar amount of time, but the first can cause traffic bunching if enough people do it. The first is like not wearing a mask (people get sick all at once), and the second is like wearing a mask (smooth out the curve).
This analogy sucks in all kinds of ways, but there you go.
Flattening the curve was super important in the early stages of COVID because it reduced bunching at hospitals and gave researchers time to work on a vaccine. Now that it's endemic, bunching is much less of a problem and symptoms are generally more mild anyway. If you're sick or around those who are (or spend a lot of time with at-risk populations), wear a mask. If not, it's basically a waste of time.
You’re part of the problem.