347
submitted 10 months ago by GiddyGap@lemm.ee to c/politics@lemmy.world

Surprise!!

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[-] prole@sh.itjust.works 112 points 10 months ago

In what warped reality is the President of the United States not "an officer of the US"? The amendment was literally made for this exact situation.

It makes less than zero sense that the drafters and ratifiers of the amendment meant to leave the highest office in the nation out of the purview of the amendment. Absolute horseshit.

Pretty disappointing to see the comments from some of the more liberal justices...

[-] Soulg@lemmy.world 50 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Not only is what you're saying obviously correct, but THE PEOPLE WHO VOTED IN THE FUCKING AMENDMENT was asked about this exact lack of the word "president", and pointed to the officer line, and said that clearly included the president.

It's also worth noting that there was just a single reference in the Senate debate to the fact that the president and vice president were not explicitly mentioned in Howard's draft as "officer(s) of the United States," the way members of Congress and state officials had been itemized in the text. Would the disqualification clause of the amendment not cover the top posts in the executive branch?

"Why did you omit to exclude them?" asked Maryland Democratic Sen. Reverdy Johnson.

Maine's Lot Morrill jumped in to clarify.

"Let me call the Senator's attention to the words 'or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States,'" Morrill said, ending the discussion on that point.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/framers-14th-amendments-disqualification-clause-analysis/story?id=105996364

[-] Fedizen@lemmy.world 8 points 10 months ago

presidential office is both, its listed twice

[-] themeatbridge@lemmy.world 26 points 10 months ago

It sounds to me like they are going to weasel out of it by saying the Colorado Supreme Court doesn't have the authority to make that decision for everyone.

Which they didn't.

The Colorado Supreme Court ruled that Trump is disqualified and cannot appear on the Colorado ballots. The Colorado Supreme Court does have that authority, because the Colorado state legislature gave it to them and nothing in federal law says they don't. Colorado had previously disqualified another candidate, and the judge who determined they could was Neil Gorsuch.

There is no question as to whether the President is an officer of the United States. There is no question as to whether his oath to uphold and defend the constitution is also an oath to support the constitution. There is no question as to whether the actions on January 6th were an insurrection, as several participants have already been convicted of seditious conspiracy. There is no question as to whether Trump supported them, because he live tweeted his support to the world in real time. There is no question as to whether Trump needs to be convicted, because the amendment never mentions conviction, and none of the other people previously disqualified under this amendment from office were convicted of anything.

None of these arguments holds even the faintest hint of water. They are bad faith arguments made by political hacks with a predetermined agenda to support Trump. The court is illegitimate, and we have no functional justice system.

[-] Treczoks@lemm.ee 7 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

None of these arguments holds even the faintest hint of water.

And guess how much they care for this? They are not neutral, they don't follow the law, they just "interpret" it to follow their political agenda. Just compare their deposits and transcripts before they were voted into the office, and their deeds afterwards. The three judges called by Trump are a disgrace to the office if there ever was one.

Just the notion that people label them as "conservative" or "republican" judges shows that they are lacking keys requirement for the job: objectivity and neutrality.

[-] oxjox@lemmy.ml 2 points 10 months ago

Colorado had previously disqualified another candidate.

Who was the other candidate? My understanding is that this case is unique in that it pertains to the President. The President is the only official elected by all Americans so this is what separates them from other officials, congressional candidates, presidential electors, etc. If someone is running for president, they should be accessible to vote for by all Americans.

If someone is illegible for President, is it proper for individual states to make the determination to keep them off the ballot? Or should it be a decision made by congress, SCOTUS, the presidential electors, or the political party? This part isn't mentioned in the constitution. And uhhh, as we know, the constitution says whatever isn't in the constitution is left to the states. Still, that's a tricky corner to be stuck in when you're talking about 50 states voting for President.

[-] themeatbridge@lemmy.world 6 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

It was indeed a presidential candidate. Hassan v Colorado, 2012.

... as the magistrate judge’s opinion makes clear and we expressly reaffirm here, a state’s legitimate interest in protecting the integrity and practical functioning of the political process permits it to exclude from the ballot candidates who are constitutionally prohibited from assuming office. See generally Munro v. Socialist Workers Party, 479 U.S. 189, 193-95 (1986); Bullock v. Carter, 405 U.S. 134, 145 (1972).

Also, you've got a typo. Ineligible. Illegible means something written so poorly that it cannot be understood.

[-] deksesuma@lemmy.world 2 points 10 months ago

To be fair, Donald Trump transcripts are also illegible

[-] ryathal@sh.itjust.works 8 points 10 months ago

They could be taking an absurdly and ultimately pointless stance that primaries aren't covered by the constitution and his presence is meaningless on the ballot of a private group. It would allow Trump on the primary ballot and still give the option for blocking him in the general election, or more likely the electors ballot.

They could go so far as to say being elected is fine, but he would be disqualified from taking the oath and becoming president, so in a Trump victory the vice president is the real winner.

[-] CptEnder@lemmy.world 7 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

While you're correct, SCOTUS will most likely rule on the basis of this being "too politicized" and write some vague motions to support it. "Officer of the US" is just one of the many avenues they can take. It's not the first time they've skirted controversial rulings this way.

Tbf it's also worked in reverse to uphold lower court rulings affirming civil rights, etc in the past too. Right or wrong, it's a "how the sausage is made" moment for the Judiciary Branch.

To be clear: I personally believe not upholding the Colorado/Maine, etc rulings to be a failure of our systems of checks and balances. Just pointing out the mechanism behind the court's choices.

[-] oxjox@lemmy.ml 5 points 10 months ago

In what warped reality is the President of the United States not “an officer of the US”?

The one where POTUS is the only "officer" not mentioned in section 3 of the 14th amendment. This was brought up in the case today at 1:57:10 https://www.youtube.com/live/6VpJKUscNaM?si=r1DuX5F82so1XaTB&t=7032

Justice Jackson asks,

Then why didn't they put the word President in the very enumerated list in section 3? They were listing people that were barred and president is not there.

Murray (representing Colorado Voters) answered this referring to the debates in congress that occurred over section 3.

Johnson said why haven't you included president in the language? Moore responds, we have. Look at the language any office under the United States...

Jackson cuts in,

doesn't that at least suggest ambiguity?

This part was very satisfying to hear...

Murray goes on to argue (1:59:03) that those listed in the section three (presidential electors and senators and representatives) do not hold offices while the constitution does say the presidency does hold an office (though he didn't indicate where is says this).

Jackson moves on from this after saying she appreciated the argument.

I felt this was a very important and convincing exchange. So, fingers crossed.


Reference https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/amendment-14/section-3/

Section 3 Disqualification from Holding Office

No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

this post was submitted on 08 Feb 2024
347 points (98.1% liked)

politics

19239 readers
2624 users here now

Welcome to the discussion of US Politics!

Rules:

  1. Post only links to articles, Title must fairly describe link contents. If your title differs from the site’s, it should only be to add context or be more descriptive. Do not post entire articles in the body or in the comments.

Links must be to the original source, not an aggregator like Google Amp, MSN, or Yahoo.

Example:

  1. Articles must be relevant to politics. Links must be to quality and original content. Articles should be worth reading. Clickbait, stub articles, and rehosted or stolen content are not allowed. Check your source for Reliability and Bias here.
  2. Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
  3. No memes, trolling, or low-effort comments. Reposts, misinformation, off-topic, trolling, or offensive. Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
  4. Vote based on comment quality, not agreement. This community aims to foster discussion; please reward people for putting effort into articulating their viewpoint, even if you disagree with it.
  5. No hate speech, slurs, celebrating death, advocating violence, or abusive language. This will result in a ban. Usernames containing racist, or inappropriate slurs will be banned without warning

We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.

All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.

That's all the rules!

Civic Links

Register To Vote

Citizenship Resource Center

Congressional Awards Program

Federal Government Agencies

Library of Congress Legislative Resources

The White House

U.S. House of Representatives

U.S. Senate

Partnered Communities:

News

World News

Business News

Political Discussion

Ask Politics

Military News

Global Politics

Moderate Politics

Progressive Politics

UK Politics

Canadian Politics

Australian Politics

New Zealand Politics

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS