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1 Upvote = 1 Condemn
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 14 Feb 2024
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honestly, at this point, i don't have the capacity to care anymore. You wanna take about the delicate nuances of the israel-hamas conflict? Absolutely, i love that kind of shit.
You wanna debate whether this is good/bad? Good luck.
Good/bad is the wrong aproach. What ppl this days lack is the sense of chivalry. If you see someone that was right in an argument beating the shit out of the guy that was wrong, you as a human being still should intervene to stop the onslaught.
It's 10k civilian deaths vs 500 civilian deaths. May be time to stop the massacre?
good bad is definitely the wrong approach. Like i said i love talking about the intricacies of these conflicts, because they're fun, but anytime someone pulls out stats or numbers that are/aren't verified my eyes just glaze over because even if it's true (from my perspective) i dont even know if israel is a real place, i've never been there. It could all be a lie. Is that likely? No, of course not, chances are it IS a real place, but the fact of the matter still stays the same. How relevant is it to me? Not very. Humans dying is bad, but humans die constantly, all over the place, for tons of different reasons, war is unfortunately one of the worse ways to go out, but it's just one of the ways.
is israel doing/has done bad things over the conflict? Absolutely. I'm not going to say they didn't. Have hamas also probably done bad things? Probably. Can i confirm either on of those things? Nope. What can i do then? Simple, i can try to understand the intricacies of the situation as best as possible so that way i can have an informed and realistic understanding of the situation. Does that mean war is suddenly good? No, obviously not, is it more productive and better than simply stating "war bad, stop doing war" Probably.
There are a lot of people defending israel in this because hamas is "a terrorist group" and "want to kill all jews" Is any of that true? No clue, and frankly i don't really give a shit. There are a lot of people defending palestine because "they're the small guy" "they're being oppressed" "israel is a militaristic ruler" etc, etc. etc.. I could go on for hours honestly. Again, do i care? Not really. There is a lot of contradictory, conflicting (both true and untrue) information on both sides. It's not a simple conflict, there is no simple resolution.
Whats the ideal outcome? Israel and palestine co-exist peacefully, simultaneously somehow. Anything other than that is messy and bound to let the same thing happen again in the future.
what does this statement mean? I dont know. The way i look at it is that 15000 people have died, and there are people out here who think the single most important factor in this whole conflict is "but, more people on this side, have died than on this side" that's terrible, did we ever stop for a second to consider that maybe war is just bad. There is no good outcome here, people die no matter what happens, the best thing we can do is to PREVENT war. Not wait for it to happen. To me it really seems like nobody cares about the actual people dying, or all the bad things happening, it seems like people care about which side deserves it, and which side unfairly procured it. Which like i've said multiple times, is a very interesting discussion. We're talking about war, not about the history, logistics, and complications behind it. We should be talking about what is happening, rather than what we care about is happening.
We're sitting here justifying the single worst human invention, in the name of posterity and justice. Rather than actually just taking the problem at face value, and seeing it for what it is, people killing each other, because we can't get along. That's the true problem here.
(wall of text ik, i just have a lot of thoughts about a lot of things, and not enough time to write them down.)
Of course many things are relative, still if we do not try to discuss specific terms there will never be human understanding.
Is Israel imaginary? Me as living in Finland, I could still not verify.
Is there a massive weapon industry in U.S: and Nato countries? Well, that you can believe it. Every bullet sold is documented by multiple entities.
Is there a specific count of bullets, assault rifles, grenades, rocket launchers, war drones, missiles, ground mines, military vehicles and bombs sold to Israel by U.S. and Nato? Yes.
Is military funding accounted? Yes.
If something is official, you can trust it is real.
On the other hand Iran smugles armament to Hamas. That amount cannot compete with the official Nato supply. It's just industrially and logistically impossible.
A gun vs knife situations consequence is that a 'war,' as you call it became a genocide.
If we do not try to specify terms, ww2 jews could also be just 'war casualties'.
i feel like people dying and war actively happening is specific enough tbh.
yeah, that's the just the reality of being a military industrial complex, and the other party being cash equipped to the point of being able to afford it. Not to mention all the other benefits that im sure military analysts would love to bring up but whatever.
you have to be careful with this one, propaganda is official, doesn't mean it's real, or accurate, Russia knows this all too well. Israel does as well, same for the US.
or what mil nerds like to refer to as "asymmetric warfare" which is what the US military industrial complex specializes in. Anybody fighting against a NATO supplied entity is just going to have a bad time, especially if they have superior technology.
I mean yeah, if you ignore the entire reason why the war started, the jewish deaths are just a war casuality. But i guess actually starting at the beginning here, where the pre-text is riddled with antisemitic, fascistic rhetoric. I mean you'd have to be blind or illiterate to somehow miss that small part of it. This is quite literally missing the forest for the trees. This is something that i iterated on in my last post.
The sheer inability to understand the consequences of an action until its results have been viewed is a problem within it's own right. By that logic ww2 was only bad once it was over. Fascism is only bad once it starts killing people for no particular reason. War is bad only when it unjustly kills people. Fraud is bad only when it hurts rich people. You see what im getting at here?
I see where you are trying to get with that argumentation based on causality: justification. Thus, back to good/bad.
Still, I disagree on your reasoning for the condemn of ww2 atrocities. From the very beginning german nationalists had a big point against jew ownership and business monopoly. It's not for nothing that a majority democratically elected the to-be dictator Hitler. It's the way Nazi party implemented the 'fix' and the indifference of the rest of the germans that made up the genocide.
Similarly you repeatedly dismiss a key historical event in the palestinian conflict beginning. The brittish gave palestinian land to jews. Land which housed the majority of the palestinians at the day. How can you expect that to work in any case? Even if Hamas didn't exist palestinians would have the right to reclaim own land and conflict would be unevitable.
Let's forget the good/bad reasoning and face the issue from it's root, which is a mere territorial dispute.
im not really sure what the point here is other than stating basic facts, so i'll leave it there.
I haven't done that a single time, please give me an example of one instance where i dismissed the balfour declaration. (as far as i am concerned you are literally pulling this out of your ass) But since you don't seem to like doing history correctly, now is the point that would be the most optimal to mention that israel/palestine goes all the way back to biblical roots. It's referred to as both israel and palestine. That's kind of where the british got the idea from. And that's kind of sort of why palestine even existed. If you want my opinion on it, i think they were likely the same land, and through thousands of years of humanity, translation, and just general shenanigans. It changed over time. There is no correct answer as to who is the original owner of that land. Unless you're willing to take religious doctrine at its word, or completely ignore it i suppose, you are given a wealth of options in that regard.
whats with the good/bad shit? I keep bringing up nuanced points, to which you seem to be either confused about, or misunderstanding. And im not sure which. Unless you're referring to my opinions on people dying, in which case that's irrelevant. I have not once, at any point throughout this thread, said that either israel, or palestine are the good/bad guys here, which is what my original point was.
Although i suppose you might be trying to engage in satire here, which would be rather amusing. Though ineffectual.
I was really enjoying this debate, which enriched me too until you lost ur cool. Sad.
Peace.
alright then, you'll have to forgive me for losing my cool then.
You only lied about something i said. No big deal.
I like Ham and I like Ass, I dont know why everyone's so upset.
Neither is kosher.