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Michigan governor says not voting for Biden over Gaza war ‘supports second Trump term’
(www.theguardian.com)
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this post was submitted on 26 Feb 2024
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Not just a second Trump term, but a second Trump term and continuation/acceleration of the genocide in Gaza. Not voting and letting Trump win with a razor thin margin in a swing state will not fix the problem. Between the two realistic choices, Biden is infinitely more likely to push Israel for a ceasefire, which is the best chance anybody has to get the situation under control.
It's a primary. If Democratic leadership has moved on from telling people that they have to get behind the nominee in the general election, to now telling people that that can't even vote against the candidate the elites have selected in a primary, they are effectively working for Trump, and tanking the election.
My comment was really more about the general election. The primary is a foregone conclusion. Joe Biden will be the Democratic party nominee. Donald Trump, barring any significant action from the SCOTUS, will be the Republican party nominee. You can vote for whoever you want in a primary. I know I voted for Bernie Sanders in the 2020 primary election, and then I voted for Biden in the general.
I hate how obvious this wedge is being driven mostly by the right, and people can't see it. It's not going to stop after the Primary, unfortunately. That's why we have to fight the narrative now while there's still time.
That's not the subject though. This is about a messaging vote in the primary.
Call me crazy, but fomenting dissent and convincing your base to do anything other than get behind your incumbent candidate is not how you win elections.
This short term protest vote effort in the primary, meaningless on the surface, could have repercussions in the long term by convincing people to not actually turn out on election day if nothing changes.
You are crazy.
Obama's primary against Hillary and Biden was brutal, including dog whistles from both the Clinton and Biden campaigns. Obama won. Hillary's primary against Sanders was absolutely tame by comparison, and she lost. Trump's primary was an absolute shit show of Republican fuckery and general nastiness, and he won. The 2020 Democratic primary was highly contended with Biden barely showing in the first several states, and he won. Trump was handed the encombant nomination with no real dissent and he lost. Are you seeing a pattern?
What you are talking about was reasonably correct in the 90s when corporate media dominated and independent media was in it's infancy. It's not applicable today.
The only incumbent you mentioned in your examples is Trump in 2020, and his defeat there had less to do with him not having serious primary challengers and more to do with the fact that he was coming off of arguably the worst presidential term in US history.
The rest of your examples (Obama, Hillary, Biden, etc.) are non-incumbents, and primaries in those cases are extremely helpful to gauge who the best candidate really is among a field of many qualified ones. That doesn't guarantee victory, especially if the establishment just hands the nom over to whoever they feel like, such as in the case of Clinton 2016, but it's not outrageous to think that if you're party is going to front the same guy as last time and there are no legitimately serious challengers, why bother encouraging people to say the incumbent is bad?
This election is quite unique, as it is literally a do-over of 4 years ago. Both parties could claim that they are running as incumbents. I don't really see how the Republican establishment expect Trump to succeed this year where he failed in 2020 all the while saddled with even more baggage considering Jan 6th and his many, many criminal indictments.
It's always entertaining when someone who provided no support for their position criticizes the references of the opposing position.
The reason for encouraging people to say the incumbent is bad is to encourage the entombment to be something other than bad, or to encourage the party to replace them. This is a one of the rare situations where voters might actually have the leverage to change US policy on a critically important issue. This push is being spearheaded by Palestinian Americans with loved ones back in Palestine. How will you convince them to vote for Biden in the primary, or even the general?
I personally think that Trump has no path to winning the presidency, and might even be replaced by the RNC if he picks up some convictions. My concern is that I think Trump might be the only Republican that Biden can beat.
I'm only criticizing your references because you apparently skipped over the entire first part of my comment that specifically mentioned incumbent candidates and began listing off examples of non-incumbents who do well or poorly based on how contested their primaries are. That's not what we're discussing here.
Realistically, nothing I say will convince them to do anything other than what they feel is right, and that's fine, but if I had to pick one thing to say, it would be:
"If you think things are bad now, they could be so, so much worse."
I think people are losing the forest for the trees with this election.
Let's be clear. There are people for whom beating Trump is not a particularly high priority, and most of them are in positions of power within the DNC. They have demonstrated it over and over, but there is one example that stands far above the rest, and that was moving the North Carolina primary to the front of the schedule.
Biden will not take NC in the general, whereas New Hampshire is very much a swing state. The DNC probably threw a state away just to make sure that the American people would not get the chance to consider a better Democratic candidate.
As long as the DNC continues to demonstrate that they would prefer Trump to a progressive candidate, progressives are going to resent supporting Democrats. If you want to get off this treadmill of existential dread, figure out how to wrench the party out of their hands. Everything else is just wasted effort because Trump, or the next Trump will win eventually.
hi, not right wing, not voting for biden. not voting in the general election at all. not unless there is meaningful action before the election. they want our vote bad, they have to earn it. not fear monger us into taking action for them.
It doesn't look like Gaza will survive til election day, so none of this can be put on Trump.
You can't blame Trump for the Gaza Genocide but you cannot claim that Trump will make any positive difference there vs Biden. And Trump WILL make destructive changes to the environment, women's rights, minority rights, trans rights, global warming, existence of democracy and establish a more fascist state. So yeah, I guess one outcome is indistinguishable from the other
Show me some meaningful changes the biden administration has made in those arenas.. We don't have federally protected trans rights. Biden ok'd new pipelines. Democrats are attacking leftists and college students and saying they are russian or chinese assets when protesting for palestine so they don't even believe in free speech. McCartheyism is on the rise and the AIPAC funded democrats don't want actual radical leftists to have any voice or power.
I'm not claiming that Biden is good, I'm claiming that Trump is worse
We've also seen what Biden will do for the environment, women's rights, minority rights, and trans rights. Nothing. This is pathetic.
Source please.
I’m sure it’s not at the level that you and I wish for, and your grievances are valid…
But calling it “nothing” and then insinuating a Trump presidency will be equally bad as another Biden term?
Come on, friend. Let’s be more rigorous than that.
You're the one defending biden, show us something that will make him look more attractive other than fear mongering about a trump presidency.
Where on this thread did I defend Biden?
Our anger at the Democratic Party not doing enough to X, Y, and Z is valid.
As far as I’m concerned, feel free to beat up on the Democratic Party.
From my perspective, I was calling out the parent poster for a lack of rigor.
A national political institution not meeting our standards is not the same as a national political institution doing nothing.
Additionally, it also doesn’t work for us to equate a Trump presidency with a second Biden term as though one clearly won’t be worse than the other for many of the values you and I seem to be mutually committed to.
Its more than not meeting our standards. It is actively working against the working and lower classes. It is not doing anything to atone for the crimes of climate change that have proven to be the fault of the US and the fossil fuel profiteers that are headquartered here. Biden and the democratic party will never attempt to seize funds from those profiteers to pay reparations to the global south. Biden and establishment democrats are not really interested in paying reparations here even. Biden thinks they did us a favor for cancelling debt if you have 12k or less. Most people have more than that from one semester of school. You also had to be paying for a set amount of time beforehand. Public service gets you a better deal but you still have to pay. Why are we the only country that has "democracy" but not social welfare anywhere near what some countries even than us have? Well because this country was always a european colonial project and it hasn't stopped being such. MAGA? No, America is an illegitimate colonial project built on slavery that hasn't been reckoned with and continues to use slavery to meet its economic goals. We are the only "democratic" country that uses forced labor as punishment during incarceration. I don't see biden or establishment democrats mentioning anything about that?! THE US STILL PROFITS OFF OF SLAVERY. Say it again and keep saying it. You are not defending some shining beacon of liberty and freedom in the darkness that is the world. America is that darkness.
I acknowledge your upset and frankly, I agree with much of what you said. I’m defending nothing.
And yet it’s still your anger at an institution not meeting your (and many others’) standards.
That’s still not the same as doing nothing, or, to put a finer point on the Trump vs Biden difference, that the Overton window in one case could even possibly trend in a direction you and I can agree is positive.
I’m done here, friend. Be well and take care of yourself.
Don't ask for evidence that something doesn't exist. Show it does exist, instead. What are Biden's wins on those issues? Every one of those things are worse today than in 2020.
regardless, Biden is obviously pro-genocide. He called himself a zionist. I'm not voting for him.
No, it doesn’t work like that. You are claiming nothing has been done on any of those issues. It's prima facie a bold and likely specious claim.
Speak honestly: have you looked for any counterexample?
Or are you content to make extreme claims, hook people in with emotion, and throw the effort onto others to check your work?
Come on.
Amazing how you have the patience to address frustrated people like that. I guess this surely is the way but encountering these baseless yet absolute accusations just makes me angry haha.
It can absolutely be put on Trump. October 7 was a response to the Abraham Accords that were championed by Trump. Those accords would put Saudi Arabia in charge of Palestinian security, which was not acceptable to Palestinians in general, or especially Hamas.
Something that isn't being talked about is the added risk because of the tensions with Iran from Trump pulling out of the nuclear deal. A lot of the unpopular moves the Biden administration has made are a direct result of that. From the start, America's top priority in all this has been to keep Iran from getting involved because that would likely be WW3.
Biden was working on the zionist project long before trump was in office.
The comment I responded to said "none of this can be put on Trump". My point was that Trump is also on the wrong side and does share some blame. I wasn't implying that Trump is solely responsible for a centuries old conflict. Yes, Biden was an influential and generally horrible Zionist in congress, a position that he still holds to this day.
You can say that all you want, but currently RIGHT NOW a democrat is furthering and furthering the genocide and murder of Palestinians. Trump IS NOT DOING THIS. Maybe he will, probably. BUT I KNOW FOR A GOD DAMNED FACT BIDEN DOESNT CARE.
Quit telling me I’m letting democracy die while we have a democrat doing conservative politics in the whitehouse.
You’re letting democracy die by capitulating to the two party system that doesn’t represent you.
Honestly, this is the reaction of a child. "I don't agree with the system so I'm going to take my toys and go home, who cares who it hurts, even if it hurts me."
So you're voting for a guy who literally said to be a dictator? A guy who as some 90something criminals indictments, and has been convicted in too many fraud cases to count, who currently owes half a billion dollars in fines? Awesome Choice
Literally, no.
Realistically Yes
If you've ever complained about a CEO seeking to boost profits to benefit themselves and not care about the long term repercussions of their actions. This is you. You're doing it now. The GOP is seeking to remove democracy. They are allowing / endorsing it at CPAC. Republicans support Israel more than Democrats. A Trump term equals never having the ability to vote again + More support for Israel doing what it's doing, and likely having the US join in. They've been begging to invade Iran for decades. Global politics is messy. If you act like it's clean you're just going to get steamrolled.