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this post was submitted on 28 Feb 2024
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Linguistics
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Now, speaking as a user discussing with another user:
First off. You're clearly assuming that I'm arguing against Esperanto usage, when I'm mostly talking about its design demerits, and how they descriptively impact its usage. Specially Esperanto as designed by Zamenhof back then; that, as yourself highlighted, is not the "same" Esperanto as now, and being promoted by plenty Esperantists under the incorrect claim that "you only need to learn 16 rules! It's so easy~" [more on that later].
And keep in mind that what I'm saying comes from the PoV of a conlanger, not the PoV of someone soapboxing which language people should use. When it comes to prescriptions of which lingua franca people should use, I'm simply lukewarm towards Esperanto.
With that out of the way: some of the claims in JBR's page are garbage, but some are actually sensible, even if you dislike them. (And some are as outdated as its layout.) It's still good discussion material about the language, regardless on how it affects its community.
The difference between "poorly designed" and "not perfect enough" is solely where you arbitrarily place the quality threshold. And the exact same argument that you're using can be used against you:
So, where do you put that bar? And more importantly, why you put it there instead of higher or lower?
I'm not going to assume what Zamenhof "wanted", regarding design, but the idea is rather curious. Contemporary Esperanto does show some developments, as if the community was addressing design issues from its original design. From the top of my head: /x/ seems to be losing phonemic status.
It is an argument against how Esperanto was designed. It is not an argument against (or for) its usage, although it's one of the factors behind it. Drop down the defensive tone and you'll see.
It has a bazillion rules, as any speakable language. Complexity is intrinsic to human linguistic communication; the very fact that Esperanto works shows that it does not have "just 16 rules". Except that those rules are not usually acknowledged by the linguistic community, even if they were the ones making them.
And which features Zamenhof took from those other languages can be criticised. For example: the article + case mark combo. It's unnecessary - you need to know two systems to be able to proficiently use the language, when one would do.
Let's call wine "wine" and bread "bread": implicit = hidden.
Esperanto as designed back then was not useable, without plopping ad hoc rules borrowed from the community's native languages. And it's currently useable because of those rules being incorporated into the language, even if implicit = hidden.
And I could argue that orange is blue or that potatoes grow on trees.
And, again, I'm criticising Esperanto's design.
And curiously enough, in no moment you actually addressed the claims. Instead you:
Rational investigation requires criticism, like it or not.
(By the way. I believe that a lot of the design issues that I mentioned will be eventually addressed within the language, not by ditching Esperanto but by slowly changing it, in a mix of natural evolution and co-designing.)
Rational investigation requires criticism, like it or not. Yes it does. But your response and your whole argumentation is not criticism but trolling, just designed to provoke an emotional response which you can then tear down and enjoying while doing it. Like what you did earlier and also on my reply.
As I wrote disproving JBR or making any response to him is like responding to an anti-vaxxer. I don't have the damn time, nor could all my responses be trusted, because I'm not a linguist, so who cares anyway? Musing all day about the details of where JBR was right and where he talked as an English speaker out of his ass, just to piss off more people -- brings what exactly? Those people who already made up their opinions will still stick to them, those who will learn Esperanto anyway will learn it anyway. The damage has already been done, because those who are undecided will not learn it or even consider it a language at all. WELL DONE!
And reactions then like yours always boils down to the "bad Esperantist", who reacts pissed off to shitty ideas, shitty opinions thrown around by people who should shut their mouths for good.
No it's not. A poorly designed pocket knife for example will hurt you, a not perfect knife is just lacking a feature which you would like, but which does not harm you.
I really tried to not assume that, but the way you argumented, how you twisted my response all lead me to the conclusion that you are argumenting against the usage of Esperanto at all as most people who follow the exact argumentation chain do. Using JBR as valid source would be one point in that chain. Like as I quote some news article of Russia Today to prove that the war of Russia against the Ukraine is right, because Ukraine is full of national socialists.
[Speaking as a moderator]
You're assuming again the intentions of another person.
You're again drawing an association of someone with anti-vaxxers, without having grounds to do so.
Now you're simply making shit up.
You're insistently behaving in ways that you were warned against. And even without that, your overall behaviour across this thread has been uncivil and irrationally defensive right off the start; I cut you some slack because it was towards me, but it's clear by your profile that you're expected to behave the same way towards other users in this community in the future, and also to use the community to soapbox if allowed.
As such, you've been deemed unfit for this community, and hereby banned from it, accordingly to the Lemmy's code of conduct that this instance follows.
I'll keep your comments visible for the sake of transparency.