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Someone stop the ride, I want to get off
(midwest.social)
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this post was submitted on 22 May 2024
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Yes I think I remember the 'it's not genocide when they've done something to deserve it' part of article II
You didn't even respond to what I actually said. You just repeated some phrase you've probably used before. It's not a genocide because if the leadership gave up and they released their civilian hoststeges the war would be over. That's how you know its not a genocide. If it was a genocide it wouldn't matter if the leaders gave up or if they released the hoststeges.
Because what you said wasn't a serious statement.
Israel has been pushing Palestinians out of Palestine and the west bank for 20 years now, it didn't just start on Oct 7. That they are fully mask-off only really makes that reality crystal clear.
If tomorrow Hamas gave back all the hostages, those 30,000+ Palestinians don't magically come back alive, their cities and schools and hospitals and cultural landmarks don't all magically reappear. Even if it did, would Israel lift their travel restrictions (that existed before oct 7) and allow Palestinians freedom to return to their homes? Would they stop settling in the West Bank?
Genocide has an actual definition, and nowhere in it is there a caveat where it's allowed if the target group has something they want.
It absolutely is. Genocide is a terrible despicable thing and if you look up the actual definition what is happening doesn't qualify. We should support Israel in this particular conflict. I don't even like Biden but what he's doing the correct thing. There is still have zero chance I'm supporting trump just because of this conflict.
Have you looked at the actual definition?
Hundreds of Genocide Scholars have described this ethnic cleansing campaign as genocide because of the deliberate targeting of children/civilians and expressed intent by Israeli officials.
“A Textbook Case of Genocide”: Israeli Holocaust Scholar Raz Segal Decries Israel’s Assault on Gaza
Application of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide in the Gaza Strip (South Africa v. Israel) and Summery by the International Court of Justice
ICJ Order 28 March 2024
Law for Palestine Releases Database with 500+ Instances of Israeli Incitement to Genocide – Continuously Updated
AP News, Time, Reuters, Vox, CBC
KIlling members of the group: 30,000+ Palestinians dead most of which are civilians
Causing them serious bodily or mental harm: again 30,000+ dead, mostly civilians and many more injured with critical infrastructure destroyed
Imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group: the destruction of universities, schools, hospitals and other typically off limits infrastructure and the prevention of access to humanitarian aid
preventing births: see above where giving birth in unsanitary conditions will dramatically raise mortality rates for women and children
forcibly transferring children out of the group: again see above with the deaths of babies and children and the absolute horror that is the "safe passage"
How can you fight a war and not have civilian casualties? Do you know how to do that? Are you saying Hamas should just get away with Oct 7th? What should be done? Don't pretend I'm defending civilian casualties I am absolutely not.
what you do is recognize why the war started in the first place and try to give back the disenfranchised people their humanity.
what's that? you're killing their children instead?
The current conflict started because of Oct 7th.
it absofuckdiddly did not
The way most other countries do it.
No one is stating it is a genocide because of unintentional civilian deaths.
You absolutely are defending the slaughter of civilians because Israels ROE are so horrible that the only logical conclusion is that the death of civilians is the point, not an accident. This level of slaughter of civilians has not been seen from other countries in a long time.
Israel likes to complain that it is singled out and treated with different standards and it's because of antisemitism. The truth is that Israel is singled out and treated with different standards, but are treated with special kid gloves that NO OTHER nation receives.
The issue is that Israel is terrified of taking causalities, a requisite part of actually fighting a war, rather than just slaughtering everyone.
Again, a good rule of thumb to determine if a country is committing genocide intentionally is if it is withholding food, medicine, and water from a population it considers undesirable.
I'm not expecting no civilian casualties, I'm expecting that enemy combatants killed should be far greater than the number of civilians killed. Currently the Israeli government has killed over 30,000 people and they admit that they have only killed about 12,000 Hamas combatants. So the other estimated 18,000+ are not combatants, and therefore civilians.
Do you know why that is the case? Because Hamas is setting up positions in civilian areas in hospitals in people's homes. They have hundreds of miles of tunnels underneath civilian populations. They are using this as a tactic. I've said this before but Hamas has said they want civilian casualties. Are you going to respond to my other question? Should they just not respond to Oct 7th? Burning babies in their cribs taking girls cell phones they had just murdered recording the scenes and sending the videos to whoever the mom was in their contact list. Like each side has done some horrible things here. It's not as clear cut as everyone here is making it out to be.
Where are you getting your information on Human Shields? Israel makes that claim a lot, for justification of astonishingly high civilian casualties. Yet if you consider independent sources such as human rights organizations and their investigations, it does not paint the same picture. Yet, even if all the Israeli claims about human shields were true, that does not mean they get a pass on international law.
The only independent verification back in 2014 (Amnesty link) is of Weapons (not rockets) hidden at a vacant school, situated btwn 2 UNRWA schools housing displaced people, by a Palestinian armed group.
The Guardian journalists had encountered a couple individuals in 2014 too.
HRW on Laws-of-War Violations 2009
Amnesty on Hamas War Crimes 2023
Yet none of those come remotely close to making hospitals and schools bombing targets. Even if all the IDF claims were true, that does not exempt those hospitals and schools as protected under international law.
Additionally, let's look at how the IDF uses Human Shields including Children (2013 Report), because the IDF use of human shields is well documented.
Hamas member, Ghazi Hamad on October 24, 2023: “Israel is a country that has no place on our land […] because it constitutes a security, military, and political catastrophe to the Arab and Islamic nation.” (October 24, 2023, LBC TV (Lebanon)). He also vowed to repeat the October 7 attacks “time and again until Israel is annihilated,” and expressing a desire to “sacrifice martyrs” (referring to Gazan civilians) for Hamas’
https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/hamas-its-own-words
I learned about how Hamas using civilian positions from John Spencer. John Spencer is an award-winning scholar, professor, author, and combat veteran. He currently serves as the Chair of Urban Warfare Studies at the Modern War Institute at West Point, Co-Director of the Urban Warfare Project, and host of the Urban Warfare Project podcast. He is also a founding member of the International Working Group on Subterranean Warfare. John served 25 years in the U.S. Army, having held ranks from Private to Sergeant First Class and Second Lieutenant to Major. He was an active duty Army officer during two combat tours in Iraq.
The ADL is a Zionist organization and conflates anti-zionism and antisemitism, it's unsurprising they provide no context and intentionally ignore historical facts that go against Zionism.
John Spencer is also not without bias. He works for the state department. I won't say all his work is bad, he has some comprehensive works such as The Mini-manual for the Urban Defender. But he does a very bad job on the Israel-Palestine conflict, because his position is the same as the US State Department, aligned with Israeli military Interests. The misinformation is blatant and not that difficult to debunk when you look for confirmation from historians and human rights organizations.
Have you read the reports by human rights organizations or books by new Historians on the subject? Because they have done on-the-ground investigations. They have a higher standard due to independent verifications from other human rights orgs and Historians respectively. This has been an apartheid for generations.
You're not responding to anyone that actually raises valid points you can't address.
Why are you so invested in not recognizing a genocide happening right in front you?
You still haven't responded to the person that pointed out that Israel has shot it's own people that were hostages that escaped holding up SOS signs.
Also, one of the big points that is contentious for the peace talks is that Israel won't promise a permanent cease-fire even if the hostages are returned.
You're lying about that point. It's provable that you're lying, and the fact that you won't engage on that point at all, except to spew more genocide denial lies clearly shows that you have such bad cognitive dissonance that you're not even capable of rational argument.
I have responded and continue to do so.
I'm invested in it because it's sympathizing with Hamas which is an actual genocidal cult but their own words. If you ask Hamas why it's fighting they will tell you it's to kill all Jews. Look at Hamas and what they stand for what they say they are going to do. Look it up as I guarantee you haven't and don't know.
What am I to say about the shooting of their own hostages. I can assume it was an accident and war is crazy. But I don't know for sure and neither do you.
Hamas broke the current cease fire that had already been in place on Oct 7th. Why would Israel agree to another cease fire from the people who broke the one they already had. Do you want Hamas to kill even more innocent? Because they have already said they will if given the chance.
I'm not lying about anything. Prove to me I'm lying. I'm engaging that " fact" right now. You can't just like I can't prove the fighting would stop if they gave up the hostages. Just because you denied reality or refuse to look at both sides does mean I'm lying. Neither side is without blame but one is way more brutal and genocidal in their intentions even if they both aren't equal in their capabilities. In my view you are being irrational by not paying attention to both sides or acknowledging what Hamas did or said they intend to do.
What ceasefire? 2023 was the deadliest year for Palestinian children before October 7th. Israel has never had interest in peace, only land grabs and ethnic cleansing.
Year before Oct 7 - Jewish Voice for Peace
2023 is 'deadliest year' for Palestinian children say human rights groups
HRW Events of 2022 and HRW Events of 2023
Hamas began twenty years into the occupation during the first Intifada, with the goal of ending the occupation. Collective punishment has been a deliberate Israeli tactic for decades with the Dahiya doctrine. Violence such as suicide bombings and rockets escalated in response to Israeli enforcement of the occupation and apartheid.
Hamas 1988 Charter and Revised 2017 Charter
The 1988 Charter, which is certainly unreasonable in its fundamentalism with Sharia Law and is antisemitic, does not call for the extermination of all Jewish People. Hamas wants an end to Israel as an Apartheid State, not an extermination of all Israelis. Under Ahmed Yassin in the 1990's, truces were offered in exchange for Israeli to withdrawal from Gaza and the West Bank to the 1967 borders. The 2017 Revised charter explicitly accepts a Two-State Solution of the 1967 Borders. Check Article 7 and 13 of the 1988 Charter to see yourself, compare it to Article 20 and 24-26 in the revised charter.
The slogan From the River to the Sea is about Palestinian liberation that started in the 60s by the PLO for a democratic secular state, not Genocide. The Syrian leader Hafez al-Assad in 1966 maybe, but he's not Palestinian.
The History of Hamas, supported by Netanyahu since 2012. The division between west bank and Gaza leadership has been a deliberate divide and conquer campaign. Like how the West Bank has been divided into hundreds of isolated enclaves by Israel.