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Outrage over ‘massacre’ in Gaza as Israel rescued four hostages
(www.theguardian.com)
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this post was submitted on 09 Jun 2024
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So then would you hold Israel to the same standard of using human shields that you do Hamas?
If so would you claim the Hamas attacks on the 7th were justified because they attacked settler towns like Be'eri, whose ideological purpose of existing this close to Gaza was specifically to create a civilian border (literal large scale human shield)?
Using civilians to protect any military objective (including the land you've settled by force) is appalling - but let's not pretend only one side is doing it.
If you really care about peace - petition your leaders for a one state solution where both Israelis and Palestinians (no matter their religion) are allowed to coexist and are equal in the eyes of the law and the people.
Yes, and this is all clear whataboutism. And lazy at that. So that means we both think Hamas should stop using civilians as human shields right? Sweet, tell me when they stop. And I'm gonna just ignore your attempt to equate Hamas charter with 11 points, that's just silly on its face :)
You accuse me of whataboutism then you just use it yourself.
Yes, I don't think Hamas should be using human shields but I also don't think Israel should be settling land even before the partitioning of Palestine. (I mean the idea of a foreign state partitioning land they don't inhabit is insane, but let's ignore that for the sake of argument)
How do you not see using civilian encampments as a makeshift human wall just as immoral?
And we can play the whole who started it first game as much as we want but it doesn't negate the fact that even after unfavorable borders for Palestine were established - settlers continued to take over land with the support of the IDF - where is the defense in burning homes and expelling Palestinians from land not even within the borders of Israel?? (oh but it was contested territory you see so that gives us the right to massacre people, yes I am very intelligent...)
Saying Hamas is the reason the IDF is killing civilians completely misses the history of the struggle - what's next the Nakba was also Hamas' fault then?
Sounds like the history is that Hamas held hostages in a refugee camp and that's dangerous for them. No other history involving anyone else legitimizes Hamas doing this.
And to address your accusation of whataboutism, I'll refer you to my original comment at the top of the chain and ask you what I started to discuss and who changed the topic. "So you would hold Israel to the same standards?" Is textbook whataboutism.
Edit: and I think using civilians as shields is worse. Much worse. End of debate.
I mean you came in swinging with the whole "but why is Hamas holding hostages in a refugee camp" line which is actual whataboutism when the thread is about the IDF killing over 200 people.
Why not ask why the IDF doesn't have procedures in place to prevent civilian casualties? Why not ask why is it impossible to send ground troops instead of carpet bombing Gaza? Why not ask why does Hamas exist in the first place? Is there a single thing you'll admit the IDF/Israel has done wrong that isn't somehow the fault of Hamas?
Your lack of humanity was already showing, but I didn't think you'd be so unable to retort that you'd just forfeit the debate..
No, I started a topic and you changed it. The article itself says there were hostages held in refugee camps. "Coming in swinging" is just... indicative. I'm ending this with you.
And there is NOTHING that excuses using civilians as shields. Stop trying to justify it.
I mean you could have asked why Israel attacks refugee camps in the first place (even before Hamas)?
Or do you think that atrocities like "women and children were stripped, lined up, photographed and then slaughtered by automatic fire" doesn't breed resentment? (not that Hamas didn't do the same on 7.11 but let's not pretend Israel isn't at least as complicit as Hamas in the overall conflict)
I'll admit using civilians as shields is indeed dreadful - but my main point is acknowledging that violence only breeds more violence and that the first step to preventing more deaths is dismantling the current terror state form of Israel, not killing more and more civilians as some form of extirpation..
I'll leave you with this - if there's no oppressor to rally against, what would give Hamas power?
All I see is you trying to garner understanding towards Hamas using civilians as shields. No history leads to this, Hamas is not forced to do this.