submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by daredevil@kbin.social to c/linux@kbin.social

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Hi, sorry if this isn't the right place for this question. I've been using Linux Mint Cinnamon for about 9 months now and have also been experimenting with an Ubuntu GNOME Wayland session for the past month or so. I don't really like distro-hopping, but using X11 isn't cutting it for me. After giving GNOME an honest shot, I don't think it's for me. However, Wayland has been stellar. I would prefer to keep using LM Cinnamon, but I have a dual monitor setup that use different refresh rates which has been causing issues.

I'm interested in Arch, but I'm slightly concerned about the frequent comments regarding things breaking during updates. Also, is maintaining an Arch install heavy on time consumption? I'm not opposed to reading the wiki and spending time here and there to keep things working. However, I'm a bit hesitant if I were to run into an issue that may be more complicated than I may be prepared for. That said, generally I do like the higher skill ceiling options, if that makes sense in this context.

Tumbleweed seems more beginner friendly from what I've read so far. While I do generally enjoy challenges, having a smoother day-to-day experience does certainly have it's own appeal.

I would primarily be doing some gaming (this would be a mix of more recent AAA titles along with less demanding ones) and programming, along with the usual stuff you'd expect on a desktop setup. I have a Ryzen 5 3600 processor, an AMD 6650 XT GPU, and 16 gb RAM if that information helps. Thanks in advance; if this isn't the right place, I'll delete the post.

Update: I have installed EndeavourOS and things have been smooth so far. The installer was very straightforward, and setup was extremely quick. I have started reinstalling various programs which were part of my original workflow with very minimal issues. The issues primarily came from adjusting to pacman syntax. I also have a series of notes regarding what I have installed and how. Cheers, and thanks for your input, everyone. I will be sticking with Gnome for the time being.

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[-] throwawayish@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Thanks OP for being relatively descriptive!

Your issues with xfce-notifyd don't make a lot of sense. Therefore, I wouldn't dismiss the thought that you might have tarnished your GNOME Wayland session. If possible, consider reinstalling a distro with GNOME pre-installed. Perhaps consider Fedora this time as it's less opinionated compared to Ubuntu and thus offers GNOME (almost exactly) like how its developers intended.

Don't be afraid to engage with GNOME's plethora of extensions. Sure, it's stupid that some basic functionality is only unofficially supported through extensions. But one simply can't deny how much they add to GNOME.

Currently, if Wayland is a requirement, then we're bound to GNOME, KDE Plasma (and COSMIC in the near future). Furthermore, there are a couple of window managers (of which Sway and Hyprland are the big ones) that are properly supported in Wayland. If, for whatever reason, GNOME is not it, then move on to explore the next. Rinse and repeat.

Regarding Arch; Arch is mostly an exercise in how good your system administration skills are. Btw, don't feel intimidated by this as the skills required are linearly correlated with the complexity of the system. E.g. a clean install with EndeavourOS that relies mostly on container-solutions for its packages and is set with (GRUB-)Btrfs+Timeshift/Snapper -comes pre-configured on Garuda Linux- should be a rock solid and easy to maintain system compared to one that relies on repos with 'frozen' packages but still chooses to install plenty through the AUR natively. (Btw, the second system I just described is bound to break and is not only very 'complex', but the combination of 'frozen' packages + over reliance on installing AUR packages natively is just a very bad practice. Note that on their own either 'frozen' packages or over reliance on installing AUR natively ain't that bad or complex, the combination -however- is astronomically bad and 'complex'.)

Question: Is there any reason why you seem to gravitate towards rolling release distros? 'Skill-ceiling' is (surprisingly enough) grossly the same on Linux Mint and Arch, it's the 'skill-floor' in which there's a (significant) discrepancy between the two. Distros with actually high skill ceilings would be the likes of Gentoo and NixOS.

Gaming and programming should be fine regardless of which distro you decide to stick to.

[-] daredevil@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

Your issues with xfce-notifyd don’t make a lot of sense. Therefore, I wouldn’t dismiss the thought that you might have tarnished your GNOME Wayland session.

Yeah, based on another reply in this thread, I seem to have botched things. I've already started ensuring I have the proper backups in place for reformatting my boot drive.

Perhaps consider Fedora this time

I certainly will. Thanks for the recommendation. This distro seemed to be the one most often recommended while I was looking around just now. I will also be looking into extensions as well.

Sway and Hyprland

Window managers have piqued my interest in the past. Currently, I think I'll focus on GNOME, but I agree with looking into these one at a time if GNOME ends up not suiting my needs.

the skills required are linearly correlated with the complexity of the system

That's good to know, I really agree with Arch's philosophy of focusing on simplicity. I don't have much experience with containers, tbh. However, I'm not opposed to learning about them. That said, I have done a little bit of reading regarding them in the past, and why they might be useful.

Question: Is there any reason why you seem to gravitate towards rolling release distros?

WRT Arch: it grabbed my interest because having the option for the most current updates sounded appealing. It may not be necessary, but if the situation arises and it would help, I'd like to have it. The Arch wiki has also been a big incentive, as well as the AUR. If I'm not mistaken, Arch is also a distro that allows me to pick and choose aspects of my operating system with intention as opposed to having a system that comes with stuff that I don't use or need.

WRT TW: As Arch grabbed my interest initially, I was worried about whether it may cause too many issues down the line. So, I read that BTRFS was useful for snapshotting and preventing accidents, while still enjoying the benefits of a rolling release distro. I suppose it comes down to having the option to choose from more current software updates, while having the security of native BTRFS support and snapshots. I was also looking at TW because it was a distro that supported KDE, but I'm learning from this thread that KDE is not ideal if I'm looking for a Wayland session.

‘Skill-ceiling’ is (surprisingly enough) grossly the same on Linux Mint and Arch, it’s the ‘skill-floor’ in which there’s a (significant) discrepancy between the two.

Whoops, lol. I'll chalk this up to being tired.

[-] throwawayish@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago

WRT Arch: it grabbed my interest because having the option for the most current updates sounded appealing. It may not be necessary, but if the situation arises and it would help, I’d like to have it.

Fair. This is a legitimately good reason.

The Arch wiki has also been a big incentive

Friendly reminder that the contents of the excellent ArchWiki translate surprisingly well to other distros.

as well as the AUR

Which you're free to benefit from regardless of which distro you end up installing as long as an Arch container offered through e.g. Distrobox is setup on your system. Not all packages are supported like this, as custom kernels offered through the AUR have to be installed natively and thus require to be installed on Arch(-based distros). But most of your needs from the AUR (or literally any repo/package from any of the supported containers distros) should be satisfied regardless.

If I’m not mistaken, Arch is also a distro that allows me to pick and choose aspects of my operating system with intention as opposed to having a system that comes with stuff that I don’t use or need.

Correct. Though, while Arch defaults to a blank slate. Other distros like Debian, Fedora and openSUSE (to name a few) do offer similar functionality on specific ISOs (or just as an option in the YaST installer for openSUSE).

I was also looking at TW because it was a distro that supported KDE, but I’m learning from this thread that KDE is not ideal if I’m looking for a Wayland session.

That's perhaps a bit too harsh on KDE Plasma without giving it an honest shot first. Don't let others' opinion on the matter deter your willingness to genuinely explore, experience and judge for yourself 😉. Furthermore, it's important to note that the development of Wayland has accelerated (relatively) recently. Therefore, the issues of others might have already been resolved since.

[-] daredevil@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

Which you’re free to benefit from regardless of which distro you end up installing as long as an Arch container offered[...]

Other distros like Debian, Fedora and openSUSE (to name a few) do offer similar functionality on specific ISOs (or just as an option in the YaST installer for openSUSE).

This information is definitely useful for me to keep in mind, thank you.

That’s perhaps a bit too harsh on KDE Plasma without giving it an honest shot first. Don’t let others’ opinion on the matter deter your willingness to genuinely explore, experience and judge for yourself 😉. Furthermore, it’s important to note that the development of Wayland has accelerated (relatively) recently. Therefore, the issues of others might have already been resolved since.

Valid reminder. I'll keep an open mind, and try things out for myself. Cheers.

[-] aleph@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I've been running EndeavourOS (Arch-based with really good defaults and a very helpful community) as my daily driver for two years, and honestly I feel the "Arch isn't stable" trope to be way overblown, based on my experience. I personally had more issues with Fedora and OpenSUSE Tumbleweed than I have with EndeavourOS so far.

Also, if Wayland is a priority then I would suggest sticking with Gnome. KDE has come a long with their Wayland support but it's still pretty buggy in comparison.

P. S. If you do fancy trying the KDE route anyway, I would disagree with the other commenter and say that Debian is not an optimal distro for KDE. This is mainly due to the fact that KDE development greatly benefits from quick updates via a rolling distro, and Debian is pretty much the antithesis of that.

[-] daredevil@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

Wayland is indeed a priority, I appreciate the insight. Your reply has given me some useful food for thought. I was also interested in Endeavour as well, but I may try toughing it out with Gnome a bit longer and keep looking into this.

[-] aleph@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I'm assuming your problems with Gnome are due to the UI? Have you tried adding extensions like Arc Menu and Dash to Panel to achieve a more cinnamon-like experience?

[-] daredevil@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Actually, the UI is alright in it's default state. Those extensions do look interesting though. I generally like using the super key to search for some programs, while opening others with the CLI. I also liked switching between active applications through this interface + arrow keys as well. Though I did have an issue with trying to navigate between programs if the program I wanted was on the other monitor. I also struggled with alt+tabbing between multiple windows of Firefox, for example. Though now that I think about it, that could potentially be resolved with utilizing workspaces better. I had issues with notifications, particularly Thunderbird and Rhythmbox. The notifications would take priority as the active window, and temporarily disable the input for whatever I was working on prior to its appearance. I tried enabling Do Not Disturb mode, disabling notifications for specific programs, and killing xfce4-notifyd through the CLI. Killing xfce-notifyd sort of helped, but would cause a weird notification that still messed with my active window. Currently, If I want to continue working or playing whatever I was using before, I have to alt+f4 the notification, which is rather cumbersome when I get an email or the song changes. Perhaps the solution is to set another shortcut to close the active window. That said, it's rather unfortunate, because LM Cinnamon seemed to handle these notifications in the same way, while being less obtrusive.

[-] aleph@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

With the first few points, I feel like these are probably things that will either get easier as you adjust to the Gnome workflow, or can be remedied by extensions. I recommend installing the unofficial Extension Manager app my Matt Jakemen, which comes with a built-in search. Makes finding extensions very convenient.

The issues with the notifications sounds a bit weird. They shouldn't be taking focus away from the app you're working on. I use Thunderbird all the time and it never does that to me. Also, xfce-notifyd? What is that running on Gnome?

[-] daredevil@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Yeah, that's understandable, which is why I'm not currently opposed to staying with Gnome for the time being. However, Cinnamon also had the option to tile windows horizontally, as well as sectioning the screen into 1/4ths. It's not the most necessary feature, but I do miss it when I'm not on the Cinnamon session. The Extension Manager app sounds useful, though I've been steering clear of them due to the complaints I've read regarding their tendency to break. I'll look into it, thanks.

I had a feeling that xfce-notifyd was something not native to Gnome. To be honest, I don't remember installing the Gnome Wayland session, but noticed it at the login screen awhile back. I logged into it using the same login that I use for my LM Cinnamon session; I've heard this is not ideal, and this issue is probably one of the reasons why. For the record, I've also previously tried installing a LM xfce session, so that is perhaps the cause for its appearance. This conversation has me wondering if there's a proper way to reduce any goofy stuff I may have done because of experimenting with DEs. I don't mind looking into it myself, but would also appreciate any insight as you seem familiar with Gnome.

[-] aleph@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago

I logged into it using the same login that I use for my LM Cinnamon session; I've heard this is not ideal, and this issue is probably one of the reasons why.

Ah yeah, this will be why. Installing different DEs as the same user is pretty much guaranteed to create conflicts and generally should be avoided. It's always best to create a new user account for each different DE you want to try out so that it doesn't screw anything up.

P. S. Gnome includes a Wayland session by default, so you don't have to install it separately like you do with KDE.

[-] daredevil@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

Installing different DEs as the same user is pretty much guaranteed to create conflicts and generally should be avoided. It’s always best to create a new user account for each different DE you want to try out so that it doesn’t screw anything up.

This has been a good first-hand experience. I'll keep this in mind moving forward.

[-] shapis@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago

Don't run arch if you need your computer to be stable and low maintenance. It usually is both those things. But there will be hickups sooner or later.

If you are used to mint and want something different. Why not try Debian ? It's very similar. Maybe try Debian+KDE.

[-] azvasKvklenko@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 year ago

I run Arch for 10+ years, currently on both of my computers that are fairly different and the maintenance for me is minimal if any. The opinion thay aRcH iS uNStaBLe comes from people who can't read Wiki carefully enough to set it up properly. Updates that broke something on its own and not as a result of users' mistake are really a rare thing. I heard of something like that maybe twice during the years and even then it didn't affect me.

[-] daredevil@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

If hiccups are a once in awhile thing, that doesn't sound too bad, I suppose. I've been enjoying learning about Linux, and I could see troubleshooting Arch being fun. Though that's probably because I haven't experienced what a bad break could be like. However, I'll look into Debian+KDE, thanks for the recommendation.

[-] azvasKvklenko@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 year ago

Different people have different opinions, but trust me - if you keep your setup simple (and it's possible to have all the goods you need without much complexity), it can be really robust. In fact, I had much worse time trying to debug Debian-based distros, as they're much more complex and hard to understand. If you need additional security for your install if it's critical, consider setting up snapshots.

[-] daredevil@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

if you keep your setup simple

I would prefer this. 😊

I had much worse time trying to debug Debian-based distros, as they’re much more complex and hard to understand

That's interesting. This thread has piqued my interest wrt Debian, so this will be a useful bit of information to consider moving forward.

If you need additional security for your install if it’s critical, consider setting up snapshots.

I am a bit familiar with snapshots--I have them set up on my current setup and have used them to recover from mistakes in the past. I'll be looking into them more as there's probably some good stuff out there that I don't know about yet. Thanks.

[-] Ashiette@lemmy.one 1 points 1 year ago

You might want to try an arch-based distro rather than Arch itself. Arch has been low maintenance for me, but it was long to set-up.

I like it that way but some don't.

But if you intend to use KDE with wayland, good luck. It's quite stable but still not there. It might have made me lose some hair over things that weren't working as expected - whereas on GNOME it was all smooth.

[-] daredevil@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

But if you intend to use KDE with wayland, good luck. It’s quite stable but still not there. It might have made me lose some hair over things that weren’t working as expected - whereas on GNOME it was all smooth.

This is very useful information, thank you. I'll keep looking into GNOME.

this post was submitted on 10 Sep 2023

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