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[-] yrmp@lemmy.world 41 points 2 days ago

Lmao my job announced layoffs a few months back. They continue to parade their corporate restructuring plan in front of us like we give a fuck if shareholders make money. My output has dropped significantly as I search for another role. Whatever code I do write now is always just copy pasted from AI (which is getting harder to use...fuck you Copilot). I give zero fucks about this place anymore. Maybe if people had some small semblance of investment in their company's success (i.e.: not milked by shareholders and beaten to dust by shitty profit driven metrics that take away from the core business), the employees might give enough fucks to not copy paste shitty third party code.

Additionally, this is a training issue. Don't offload the training of your people onto the universities (which then trap the students into an insurmountable debt load leading them to take jobs they otherwise wouldn't want to take just to eat and have a roof over their heads). The modern corporate landscape has created a perfect shitstorm of disincentives for genuine effort and diligence. Then you expect us to give a shit about your company even though the days of 40 years and a pension are now gone. We're stuck with 401k plans and social security and the luck of the draw as to whether we can retire or not. Work your whole life for what? Fuck you. I'm gonna generate that AI code and enjoy my 30s and 40s.

A workforce trapped by debt, forced to prioritize job security and paycheck size over passion or purpose. People end up in roles they don't care about, working for companies they have no investment in, simply to keep up with loan payments and the ever increasing cost of living.

"Why is my organization falling apart!?" Fucking look up from the stupid fucking metrics that don't actually tell you anything you dumb fucks. Make an actual human decision and fix the wealth inequality. It's literally always wealth inequality.

[-] AdolfSchmitler@lemmy.world 18 points 2 days ago

"People work in roles they don't care about, for companies they have no investment in, to pay loans they shouldn't have."

That sounds like a fight club quote lol. I know you didn't say "loans they shouldn't have" but the cost of college is just stupidly high. It doesn't have to be free but come on.

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[-] WalnutLum@lemmy.ml 58 points 2 days ago

“When asked about buggy AI, a common refrain is ‘it is not my code,’ meaning they feel less accountable because they didn’t write it.”

That's... That's so fucking cool...

[-] reka@lemmy.world 55 points 2 days ago

As stated in the article, this has less to do with using AI, more to do with sloppy code reviews and code quality enforcement. Bad code from AI is just the latest version of mindlessly pasting from Stack Overflow.

I encourage jrs to use tools such as Phind for solving problems but I also expect them to understand what they’re submitting and be ready to defend it no differently to any other PR. If they’re submitting code they don’t understand that’s incredibly unprofessional and I would come down very hard on them. They don’t do this though because we don’t hire dickheads.

[-] Wrench@lemmy.world 6 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Shift-left eliminated the QA role.

Now we have AI generated shit code, with devs that don't understand the low level details of both the language, and the specifics of the generated code.

So we basically have content entry (ai inputs) and extremely shitty QA bundled into the "developer" role.

As a 20 year veteran of the industry, people keep asking me if I think AI will make developers obsolete. I keep telling them "maybe some day, but today's LLMs are not it. The AI bubble is going to burst, and a few legit use cases will make it through"

[-] technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Bad code from AI is just the latest version of mindlessly pasting from Stack Overflow.

Humans literally can not scan all of SO to make a huge copypasta.

It takes much more time, effort, and thought to find various solutions on SO and patch them together into something that works well.

[-] MonkderVierte@lemmy.ml 11 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Yeah but... i asked chatgpt once how to style something in asciidoctors style.yml. It proposed me html syntax (some inline stuff can be done with html tags in asciidoctor, if output is html). After the usual apology, it suggested some wrong yaml. Third try, because formatting was wrong, it mixed them both.

I mean, sure, some niche usecase in a somewhat obscure (lots of moving parts) lightweight markup. But still, this was a lesson.

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[-] Treczoks@lemmy.world 86 points 2 days ago

Good. This is digital Darwinism at its finest. Weeds out the companies who thought they could save money by relying on a digital monkey instead of actual professionals.

[-] Telorand@reddthat.com 245 points 3 days ago

Wow, the text generator that doesn't actually understand what it's "writing" is making mistakes? Who could have seen that coming?

I once asked one to write a basic 50-line Python program (just to flesh things out), and it made so many basic errors that any first-year CS student could catch. Nobody should trust LLMs with anything related to security, FFS.

[-] skillissuer@discuss.tchncs.de 98 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Nobody should trust LLMs with anything

ftfy

also any inputs are probably scrapped and used for training, and none of these people get GDPR

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[-] SketchySeaBeast@lemmy.ca 83 points 3 days ago

I wish we could say the students will figure it out, but I've had interns ask for help and then I've watched them try to solve problems by repeatedly asking ChatGPT. It's the scariest thing - "Ok, let's try to think about this problem for a moment before we - ok, you're asking ChatGPT to think for a moment. FFS."

[-] USSEthernet@startrek.website 23 points 3 days ago

Critical thinking is not being taught anymore.

[-] djsaskdja@reddthat.com 16 points 2 days ago

Has critical thinking ever been taught? Feel like it’s just something you have or you don’t.

[-] Sauerkraut@discuss.tchncs.de 15 points 2 days ago

Critical thinking is essentially learning to ask good questions and also caring enough to follow the threads you find.

For example, if mental health is to blame for school shootings then what is causing the mental health crisis and are we ensuring that everyone has affordable access to mental healthcare? Okay, we have a list of factors that adversely impact mental health, what can we do to address each one? Etc.

Critical thinking isn't hard, it just takes time, effort.

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[-] blackjam_alex@lemmy.world 54 points 3 days ago

My experience with ChatGPT goes like this:

  • Write me a block of code that makes x thing
  • Certainly, here's your code
  • Me: This is wrong.
  • You're right, this is the correct version
  • Me: This is wrong again.
  • You're right, this is the correct version
  • Me: Wrong again, you piece of junk.
  • I'm sorry, this is the correct version.
  • (even more useless code) ... and so on.
[-] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 31 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

I interviewed someone who used AI (CoPilot, I think), and while it somewhat worked, it gave the wrong implementation of a basic algorithm. We pointed out the mistake, the developer fixed it (we had to provide the basic algorithm, which was fine), and then they refactored and AI spat out the same mistake, which the developer again didn't notice.

AI is fine if you know what you're doing and can correct the mistakes it makes (i.e. use it as fancy code completion), but you really do need to know what you're doing. I recommend new developers avoid AI like the plague until they can use it to cut out the mundane stuff instead of filling in their knowledge gaps. It'll do a decent job at certain prompts (i.e. generate me a function/class that...), but you're going to need to go through line-by-line and make sure it's actually doing the right thing. I find writing code to be much faster than reading and correcting code so I don't bother w/ AI, but YMMV.

An area where it's probably ideal is finding stuff in documentation. Some projects are huge and their search sucks, so being able to say, "find the docs for a function in library X that does..." I know what I want, I just may not remember the name or the module, and I certainly don't remember the argument order.

[-] 9488fcea02a9@sh.itjust.works 17 points 2 days ago

AI is fine if you know what you're doing and can correct the mistakes it makes (i.e. use it as fancy code completion)

I'm not a developer and i havent touched code for over 10 yrs, but when i heard about my company pushing AI tools on the devs, i thought exactly what you said. It should be a tool for experienced devs who already know what they're doing....

Lo and behold they did the opposite... They fired all the senior people and pushed AI on the interns and new grads.... and then expected AI to suddenly make the jr devs work like the expensive Sr devs they just fired...

Wtf

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[-] saltesc@lemmy.world 34 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

All the while it gets further and further from the requirements. So you open five more conversations, give them the same prompt, and try pick which one is least wrong.

All the while realising you did this to save time but at this point coding from scratch would have been faster.

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[-] Snapz@lemmy.world 63 points 2 days ago

And none of the forced tech support "AI" replacements work. And the companies don't give a shit.

[-] echodot@feddit.uk 42 points 2 days ago

I've had this argument with them a few times at work. They are definitely going to replace this all with AI. Probably within the next year and no amount of us pointing out that it won't work and they'll end up having to bring us back, at 3x the rate, seems to have any effect on them.

I'm probably going to have to listen to a lot of arguments about this strawberry thing tomorrow.

Anyway whatever, severance is severance.

[-] stringere@sh.itjust.works 11 points 2 days ago

I was once in a similar position: company merger and they decided to move support offshore. We got 6 months lead notice and generous severance paid out as long as we stayed to the end. Fast forward a year and they took 85% customer approval to 13%. We got hired back at 1.5x our old pay rate, so not quite the 3x you mentioned. Hoping this works out similar for you in the end.

[-] ulkesh@lemmy.world 133 points 3 days ago

Oh geez…who could have seen this coming?

Oh wait, every single senior developer who is currently railing against their moron AI-bandwagoning CEOs.

[-] Aceticon@lemmy.world 17 points 2 days ago

Middle and upper management are like little children - they'll only learn that fire hurts by putting their hand in it.

[-] simplejack@lemmy.world 73 points 2 days ago

Me and my team take our site down the old fashioned way. Code copied from some rando on the internet.

[-] Aceticon@lemmy.world 17 points 2 days ago

It's pretty much the same as AIs do - copy and past random code from Stackoverflow - but they do it automatically.

[-] echodot@feddit.uk 24 points 2 days ago

Reminds me of the time that I took down the corporate website by translating the entire website into German. I'd been asked to do this but I hadn't realized that the auto translation Plug-In actually rewrote code into German, I thought it was just going to alter the HTML with JavaScript at runtime, but nope. It actually edited the files.

It also translated the password into German which was fun because it was just random characters so I have no idea what it translated into.

[-] NecroParagon@lemm.ee 11 points 2 days ago

That's fucking hilarious

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[-] SaharaMaleikuhm@feddit.org 109 points 3 days ago

But are the shareholders pleased?

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[-] JordanZ@lemmy.world 81 points 3 days ago

Except it’s a computer writing the code that somebody probably ran once and said ‘looks good’ for their ‘happy path’ and committed it. So it’s inevitably probably full of weird edge case bugs…have fun.

[-] ChickenLadyLovesLife@lemmy.world 32 points 2 days ago

I always claimed in job interviews to be good at debugging, but there are no certifications for debugging and there's really no way for an interviewer to verify such a claim. So even though it is an incredibly important skill, companies just do not look for it. There is also the hilariously misguided belief that good coders do not produce bugs so there's no need for debugging.

[-] PM_Your_Nudes_Please@lemmy.world 26 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

There is also the hilariously misguided belief that good coders do not produce bugs so there's no need for debugging.

Yeah, fuck this specifically. I’d rather have a good troubleshooter. I work in live events; I don’t care if an audio technician can run a concert and have it sounding wonderful under ideal conditions. I care if they can salvage a concert after the entire fucking rig stops working 5 minutes before the show starts. I judge techs almost solely on their ability to troubleshoot.

Anyone can run a system that is already built, but a truly good technician can identify where a problem is and work to fix it. I’ve seen too many “good” technicians freeze up and panic at the first sign of trouble, which really just tells me they’re not as good as they say. When you have a show starting in 10 minutes and you have no audio, you can’t waste time with panic.

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[-] affiliate@lemmy.world 15 points 2 days ago

There is also the hilariously misguided belief that good coders do not produce bugs so there's no need for debugging.

i’m terrified of people who think this way. my experience has been that they are much less inclined to check for bugs in their code and tend to produce much buggier code

[-] suzune@ani.social 11 points 2 days ago

AI code is not clever. It's all developers averaged. Even if it worked properly, you'd get average quality code.

It's rather lazy and cheap. This is where the quality is lacking.

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[-] Aceticon@lemmy.world 8 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

The pain in the arse which is debugging is what motivated me to, as my career progressed, improve my coding, improve my software design, improve my systems design, even improved my software development process and standards and eventually that even extended to getting those I worked with to also improving those things as I sometimes ended up having to debug their bugs.

Debugging definitelly makes better techies, IMHO, mainly because of the lengths people will go to in order the avoid having to do it.

[-] Tylerdurdon@lemmy.world 46 points 2 days ago

See? AI creates jobs! Granted, it's specialized mop up situations, but jobs!

It'll be even more interesting in the future! Every now and then a T1000 will lose all hydraulic fluids right out it's prosthetic anus and they'll need someone there with a mop and bucket! Our economy lives on...

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[-] RobotToaster@mander.xyz 77 points 3 days ago
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[-] prex@aussie.zone 21 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Sounds like the Sirius cybernetics corporation:

The fundamental design flaws are obscured by the superficial design flaws.

[-] ShittyBeatlesFCPres@lemmy.world 50 points 3 days ago

If I was still in a senior dev position, I’d ban AI code assistants for anyone with less than around 10 years experience. It’s a time saver if you can read code almost as fluently as you can read your own native language but even besides the A.I. code introducing bugs, it’s often not the most efficient way. It’s only useful if you can tell that at a glance and reject its suggestions as much as you accept them.

Which, honestly, is how I was when I was first starting out as a developer. I thought I was hot shit and contributing and I was taking half a day to do tasks an experienced developer could do in minutes. Generative AI is a new developer: irrationally confident, not actually saving time, and rarely doing things the best way.

[-] GetOffMyLan@programming.dev 24 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

I've found they're great as a learning tool where decent docs are available. Or as an interactive docs you can ask follow up questions to.

We mostly use c# and it's amazing at digging into the MS docs to pull out useful things from the bcl or common patterns.

Our new juniors got up to speed so fast by asking it to explain stuff in the existing codebases. Which in turn takes pressure off more senior staff.

I got productive in vuejs in a large codebase in a couple days that way.

Using to generate actual code is insanely shit haha It is very similar to just copy pasting code and hacking it in without understanding it.

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[-] Ilandar@aussie.zone 25 points 3 days ago

The point of the article isn't that AI is outright useless as a coding tool but that it lulls programmers into a false sense of security regarding the quality and security of their code. They aren't reviewing their work as frequently because of this new reliance on AI as a time saver, and as such are more likely to miss any mistakes that they or the AJ made.

[-] spankmonkey@lemmy.world 16 points 2 days ago

The point of the article isn’t that AI is outright useless as a coding tool but that it lulls programmers into a false sense of security regarding the quality and security of their code.

Lulling them into a false sense of security is half of what makes it useless. The fact that it makes shitty code is the other half.

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[-] SuperFola@programming.dev 31 points 3 days ago

How come the hallucinating ghost in the machine is generating code so bad the production servers hallucinate even harder and crash?

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[-] _sideffect@lemmy.world 25 points 3 days ago

"AI" is just good for simple code snippets. (Which it stole from Github repos).

This whole ai bs needs to die already, and the people who lie about it held accountable.

[-] Etterra@lemmy.world 13 points 2 days ago

Good. Maybe if the stuff trashes enough of our infrastructure somebody somewhere will actually figure out that it's bad and get rid of it forever.

I know, it'll never happen. But a man can dream.

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[-] Rob200@lemmy.autism.place 13 points 2 days ago

Wait. Ai doesn't have logic built beyond untested data that's thrown at it? Who could had told someone this would happen ahead of time? Conspiracy theorists.

[-] echodot@feddit.uk 14 points 2 days ago

Why have you blanked out bits of the article?

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[-] werefreeatlast@lemmy.world 16 points 3 days ago

Also it is pure junk. Chat-GPT code may come out fast on the screen but it's garbage. I tried python and c++ both just pure garbage. Sure I got it to do what I wanted but only after a day of hair pulling repetitive madness. Simple task, open an image and invert it . Then we'll it opened the image but didn't invert. Or maybe it's upside down. Can you open the image right side up and invert it....fuck fuck, why is the window full screen? Did I ask for full screen, shit heavens no! Anyway it's a fuckin idiot just rambling code at me.

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this post was submitted on 15 Sep 2024
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