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submitted 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) by jet@hackertalks.com to c/carnivore@lemm.ee

TLDR - There is far from consensus in the vilification of red meat in dietary guidelines. This article dives into the details of the ongoing schism.

Mainstream dietary recommendations now commonly advise people to minimize the intake of red meat for health and environmental reasons. Most recently, a major report issued by the EAT-Lancet Commission recommended a planetary reference diet mostly based on plants and with no or very low (14 g/d) consumption of red meat. We argue that claims about the health dangers of red meat are not only improbable in the light of our evolutionary history, they are far from being supported by robust scientific evidence.

Full paper at the above link.

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[-] TheFriendlyDickhead@lemm.ee 2 points 1 day ago

You are going to die of cancer and then we will se if red meat has an impact. There absolutely is consensus that too much is bad for you.

[-] jet@hackertalks.com 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

That is the consensus of the media narrative, to be sure.

Consensus is a social construct, science is about repeatable independent experiments. As this very paper indicates poorly sliced epidemiolocal data does not establish a causal link

[-] TheFriendlyDickhead@lemm.ee 2 points 1 day ago

Ok lets analyse your little paper: Because of a lack of page numbers I am going to cite with the number of the abstract

However, when it comes to virtually every other species, we generally take it for granted that it will flourish best on a diet that roughly resembles the one to which it was adapted (abst. 2)

This is based on the false take that our body developed to a only meat diet. Humans are omnivores, that means that our usual food consits of a lot of different things. Cats for example are pure carnivores. So their diet has to consist on mostly meat. And in oir society what they get is the meat that we don't want to eat, so no red meat and if so only small portions of it.

Schoenfeld and Ioannidis (Citation2013) found that, among 50 common ingredients used in a cookbook, 40 had been associated with cancer risk or benefit based on observational studies. (Abst. 3.1)

Yes they found a causality between these and cancer.

  1. That doesn't mean that it has a negative influence

Only 39% of ingredients have a negative inpact and only 24% of those have a strong statistical significance. That means only 9.36% of tested foods have a statisticly strong influence. A lot less then the proclaimed 80% (Schonefeld and loannidis, 2013, page. 3, TABLE 1)

  1. The paper only proves some sort of causality. It does not say how big the impact is. So still doesn't prove the point.

Ok I got to go now, but to sum up the reat of the article: I have not read a single proving argument. Everything just consisted of using sources that say red meat is bad and saying, something wild to direct the mind in a different direction. No own studies have been conducted! So the whole argumentation bases on could be.

But if you have any more abstracts you feel are important and should be conaidered feel free to reply :)

[-] jet@hackertalks.com 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Thanks for taking the time to read the paper so we can have a discussion, i really appreciate it, genuinely.

I can't find the graph you included in the paper, where is it from? The Schoenfeld paper? https://doi.org/10.3945/ajcn.112.047142 looks like it. I admit I have not read "Is Everything we eat associated with cancer? A Systematic cookbook review" yet.

I think the major thrust of the argument is that correlative studies of epidemiology are a poor place to set prescriptive guidance from.

Even the Schoenfeld 2013 says "Associations with cancer risk or benefits have been claimed for most food ingredients. Many single studies highlight implausibly large effects, even though evidence is weak. Effect sizes shrink in meta-analyses."

The context of sick person confounders also needs to be accounted for in RCTs, such as sugar intake in diets, healthy patient confounders, etc. (A classic example would be smokers tend to eat red meat and ignore common health guidance, and also eat more red meat - we could try to control for the smokers, but they would skew any epidemiological results)

i.e.

A pooled analysis of prospective cohort studies in Asian countries even indicated that red meat intake was associated with lower cardiovascular mortality in men and cancer mortality in women (Lee et al., 2013).

This data point speaks to a confounder in the western cohort, I suspect its sugar and processed food.

It would be a interesting, and likely positive correlation, research question - Red Meat Plus High Carbohydrates all cause mortality? I suspect any combination of foods plus sugar will show a correlation!

[-] jet@hackertalks.com 0 points 3 days ago

This is a excellent response article, and deserves to be read in its entirety, its comprehensive and elegant.

My notes from my read through.

These data are, for the largest part, generated from observational studies within the domain of nutritional epidemiology, the limitations of which will be discussed below.

Taken together, it is repeatedly stated in academic literature that high meat intake is associated with higher mortality, cardiometabolic illnesses, diverse types of cancer, and intestinal disorders

make recommendations based on this research, assuming causal relationships between meat intake and morbidity and mortality

overwhelming corpus of often non-robust and overstated observational findings has been amassing over the last decades in the field of nutrition. Naïve interpretations of these findings are often promoted by the media and influence nutritional guidelines.

The input data obtained from food frequency questionnaires should be interpreted prudently as they can be problematic for a variety of reasons

Social desirability bias in food reporting is just one example, as reported consumption can be affected by the perceived health status of certain foods. Not all self-defined vegetarians avoid meat, which is suggestive of a considerable risk for underreported intake in health-conscious groups

diets are difficult to disentangle from other lifestyle factors. It has been shown that Western-style meat eating is closely associated with nutrient-poor diets, obesity, smoking, and limited physical activity. Given the fact that health authorities have been intensely promoting the view that meat is unhealthy, health-conscious people may be inclined to reduce intake.

i.e. Healthy Subject confounders.

Typically, the associations between meat eating and disease tend to be higher in North American than in European or Asian cohort studies, indicating the presence of lifestyle bias and the need for cross-cultural assessments

Likewise, when omitting Seventh-Day Adventist studies from meta-analyses, the beneficial associations with cardiovascular health for vegetarian diets are either less pronounced or absent indicating the specific effects of health-conscious lifestyle rather than low meat consumption as such. This is important, as Seventh-Day Adventism has had considerable influence on dietary advice worldwide

Third point, the relative risks (RRs) obtained from observational studies are generally low, i.e., much below 2.

such low RR levels in isolation would not be treated as strong evidence in most epidemiological research outside nutrition

ex… The association between meat eating and colorectal cancer, for instance, leads to an RR estimate below 1.2, whereas for the association between visceral fat and colorectal neoplasia this value equals 5.9. The latter provides a robust case that is much more deserving of priority treatment in health policy development

Nutritional epidemiology is a useful tool for the generation of hypotheses, but its findings as such do not provide a robust basis for the implementation of health policies in the absence of further substantiation. Or, as stated by Gerstein et al. (2019), “analyses of most observational data from the real world, regardless of their sophistication, can only be viewed as hypothesis generating”

the current epidemiological and mechanistic data have not been able to demonstrate a consistent causal link between red meat intake and chronic diseases, such as colorectal cancer

Intervention studies that overlook the normal dietary context or use non-robust biomarkers should be interpreted with caution, and do not justify claims that there is a clear link between meat and negative health outcomes

i.e. RCTs that look at health markers like LDL instead of hard endpoints like all cause mortality

we conclude that there is a lack of robust evidence to confirm an unambiguous mechanistic link between meat eating as part of a healthy diet and the development of Western diseases. It is paramount that the available evidence is graded prior to developing policies and guidelines, making use of quality systems such as GRADE

i.e. Make drastic changes AFTER you have data, not before, or we will repeat the low-fat problem Ansiel Keys created in the 1950s - which also was introduced before data was available.

3.3. A scientific assessment should not overlook conflicting data…Dietary advice that identifies meat as an intrinsic cause of chronic diseases often seems to suffer from cherry-picking

Whereas per capita consumption of meat has been dropping over the last decades in the US, cardiometabolic diseases such as type-2 diabetes have been rapidly increasing. Although this observation does not resolve the question of causality one way or the other, it should generate some skepticism that meat is the culprit

We contend that a large part of the case against meat is based on cherry-picked evidence and low-quality observational studies. The bald claim that red meat is an “unhealthy food” (Willett et al., 2019) is wildly unsupported.

[-] jet@hackertalks.com 0 points 3 days ago

Given this article, the research it references, the metabolic outcomes people are seeing on ketogenic diets, and historic diets - I'm comfortable maintaining a carnivore lifestyle.

Just to be clear, this doesn't mean everyone should do it, but it is a viable option for those who are interested in it.

this post was submitted on 06 Jan 2025
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