Lots of people who are designing websites and webapps are just out for the design. Usability went in the background for whatever reason.
But more and more people are getting more aware of user friendly UI and functions for people with disabilities. But yet it's not the highest priority sadly.
for whatever reason
Flashy sleek shit gets invested in.
Outside of business specifically oriented towards people with accessibility issues, the energy just doesn't translate into VC.
Companies who do try to shoehorn it in when products are more mature usually have:
A codebase with a frustrating amount of refactoring in order to retroactively get things in line.
Development inertia where it's seen as a low value activity among developers and product owners
Lack of clear guidance/tools/processes to QA new work
Lack of will to retroactively identify the breadth and scope of changes you even want to make
There is no mystery. It's not going to get you sexy VC money at the beginning, and then it's bizarrely more work than you'd think once your project is sufficiently large.
That doesn't explain why already established products are ditching things like plainly visible scroll bars in products like Microsoft word and other content viewers.
That's true. I can speak from experience how I've seen it go down in many products, but no idea what apple and Microsoft are thinking.
It's bizarre, because usually at some point in size, companies will start to explicitly have accessibility UAT processes. Even directorship roles specifically with that responsibility
It’s bizarre, because usually at some point in size, companies will start to explicitly have accessibility UAT processes. Even directorship roles specifically with that responsibility
I used to be a programmer for a large cable company (rhymes with "bombast") and at one point I was the only programmer there working on accessibility in all their mobile products. The executives there at all levels had a shocking contempt for accessibility as something to even be concerned about at all and it showed in the disastrous state of all their apps. The only reason they even began to address the problem was the threat of million-dollars-per-month fines from the FCC for all the accessibility audit failures. They even hired a blind guy as accessibility VP but he quit in despair over the corporate lack of concern after just a few months.
And just straight up broken by idiocy like infinite scroll.
I would imagine the same designer who implements infinite scroll would also design bad scrollbars
Most fun are the infinite scroll pages with a footer.
People with dexterity and hand control challenges have a difficult time with these skinny scroll bars.
I have neither dexterity nor hand control challenges and I still find it incredibly hard to grab those skinny scroll bars.
One additional design "feature" I really despise is auto hiding scroll bars. So then to visually see when I am I have to scroll up and down to bring it back.
And web designers that do that stupid scroll hijacking where scrolling "stops" and then things move around for a bit should be launched into the sun. It's the most anti-UX design I've ever seen. It's literally the same as temporarily causing your mouse cursor to move in the opposite direction of input and then calling it a "design feature".
Imagine if each application on your computer arbitrarily changed up the direction your mouse cursor moves. It's literally the same thing. Computer input should be 100% predictable and reliable. The instant you do that it makes the computer/program/website feel sluggish and inoperative.
That scroll hijacking legit feels like getting stunned in call of duty or something, suddenly your mouse just doesn't want to do what you tell it to.
Just more examples of modern designers creating shit to stay relevant.
I hate modern design. We had good design up until the mid-2000s, then it all started going to shit.
Back in the day, the guideline was to put useful information and links at the top of the page when it loads, so that people could read the important bits and follow the links they needed without having to scroll down. Then everyone started using the entire space on load for a stock marketing photo or video so you would always need to scroll to see anything useful. Then they added whitespace everywhere so you'd need to scroll more. Then they removed the scrollbars. And sometimes they make scrolling do unpredictable animations instead of scrolling. It has become self-indulgent design instead of functional.
But if we show a full-sized scrollbar all the time, we lose all that space that we could have left completely empty otherwise!
Yeah, losing function over form is annoying.
They need that extra space to cram in more ads!
I am sick of modern minimalist UI where functionality is not a priority.
I always prefer win32 applications for this reason.
Heck, I even prefer the ultra-skeuomorphic textured-everything approach of Mountain Lion-era OS X over the current ultra-minimalist approach where everything is either a hairline or a big flat monocolored shape.
It actually makes it harder to parse the UI when a button, a text field, a label, and a random part of the window can look exactly the same. I'd rather take a file manager that tries to look like a 1980s hifi stereo.
Or you know, a reasonable middle ground.
In the early '90s Alan Cooper wrote a book called About Face which unfortunately has dropped off the face of the earth as far as its influence on UI design is concerned. One of its many sensible proscriptions was that UI elements that can be interacted with should be visibly distinct from elements that are just there to display information. As a programmer, it drives me insane to have to use any of the modern apps that have completely abandoned this principle - or to have to deal with designers who have literally mocked me for thinking this is important.
I would like my scroll bars back please. Scroll wheel on a mouse is not enough. Neither is a fling gesture on touchpad or screen.
I love it when scrollbars are like, half an atom wide. Makes it easy to use the website.
It could be that websites are being made unbearable, to pressure users into switching to the site's mobile apps, which are generally spyware. I can't stand looking at homedepot.com on a phone, for example. Even if I don't look at the screen, I can feel the phone warming up in my hand as the crapware javascript on the site drains the phone battery.
I have a broken scroll wheel (which happens every 5-10 years, whenever the lifecycle of my mouse reaches its end), and I feel the pain every freakin time I wanna scroll.
Nowadays with such high-resolution screens I just can't understand why it's needed to make those scrollbars so narrow.
I feel you, so I have researched this:
For Firefox you can change the width /style of the scrollbar:
(A) In a new tab, type or paste
about:config
in the address bar and press Enter/Return. Click the button accepting the risk.
(B) In the search box in the page, type or paste
widget.non-native-theme.scrollbar.style
(C) Press the Return or Enter key to find the setting. Click the Edit (pencil) button on the right side of the widget.non-native-theme.scrollbar.style setting.
(D) Delete the current 0 value for the default OS style scrollbar. Then input the value 1 (Mac OS X), 2 (GTX), 3 (Android), 4 (Windows 10), or 5 (Windows 11) in the widget.non-native-theme.scrollbar.style box for the scrollbar style you want to change to. For example, enter 4 to change the scrollbar to the default Windows 10 design.
(E) Click the Save button on the right side of the widget.non-native-theme.scrollbar.style setting to apply.
Also for the hiding:
Windows: Settings > Ease of Access > Display > Automatically hide scroll bars in Windows
Mac: System Preferences > General > Show scroll bars
What the fuck is it with apps just making the scrollbar completely hidden until you scroll with the mouse or keyboard? Microsoft seems like the biggest offender with this. It’s so irritating, they’ve got more than enough space to just keep it around all the time, it’s what I’m expecting to find there, hiding it just makes more annoyed each time. It’s not as bad if you’re using a mouse with a scroll wheel, but on a laptop with a trackpad it’s beyond annoying.
For a while I was playing video games with a mouse that had a broken scroll wheel. Some games just don't even implement a scroll bar at all... So you have to hold down the arrow keys to go through each item. So infuriating.
I call it the "War on Scrollbars" and I think it started when some meme about watching a teacher use a computer got popular. https://old.reddit.com/r/fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuu/comments/df8cd/watching_someone_use_a_computer/
I absolutely hate how tiny scrollbars have gotten. I hate how clicking in a certain spot cause the scrollbar to move slightly instead of jumping directly to where I click.
These are modern design decisions that I think shitty designers implemented because they need to feel useful. Then, autistic users who want nothing on their screen praise them for it.
It's disgusting and I hope, one day, we can look back on how the 2010s were the worst decade for software design so far.
Then, autistic users who want nothing on their screen praise them for it
What does autism have to do with scrollbars?
Yeah seriously. Like I am okay with them auto hiding when the mouse is away, but nowadays, even when you're mousing over them, they're only like 3-4px wide. What kind of a mouse target is that?! Ridiculous.
So, to tl;dr the article: size does matter
It's not the length of the scrollbar, it's how you use it (and also girth)
I like the way GTK is doing it. You have a thin scrollbar that is overlayed over the content and has no background (so just the knob) but when you get near it with the mouse, the background appears and it becomes double as thick. That way you're not wasting any space but you don't have this issue of it being hard to use either.
Am I the only one who never considered normal scrollbars to be a 'waste of space'?
It's surprising to me how modern designers seem to care about scrollbars, but not all the white space we see on everything else.
Minimalist design really went from "maybe 38 different clickable links isn't the most optimal way to get around this site, we should probably optimize how we use screen space" to "WE MUST GET RID OF USEFUL FEATURES SO WE CAN DISPLAY 5-8 MORE PIXELS OF WHITESPACE" in the span of a decade lol
What I also like about GTK's scrollbars is that the scrollbar only auto hides when the scroll area completely looses focus. As long as the mouse cursor is hovering anywhere in the scrolling region the scrollbar is visible, so you don't have to scroll first to see where the scroll position is.
X buttons are another problem, light grey and fucken 10% opacity on a white background and the target is right in the middle of the intersect.
Even using pc all day I can't click a scroll bar on the first time!
Customizing the scrollbar on Firefox using CSS is different so many sites don't even bother and keep the default one
Overlay scrollbars. Luckily in gnome and kde plasma you can disable them and get real always visible scrollbars
According to the article they took away the override setting in GTK4 and they aren't bringing it back
Sounds pretty on brand for gnome ngl
I bought a macropad with knobs just because of this... (I use a Wacom tablet in place of a mouse and it doesn't have a worthy scrollwheel alternative, so I couldn't navigate many "modern" websites and programs)
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