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[-] NewNewAccount@lemmy.world 178 points 1 year ago

Seems like bullshit to me. Recognizing the logical fallacy here, it’s still worth pointing out the firm has a history of working with major auto manufacturers, and is headquartered near Detroit. Their CEO, Patrick L. Anderson, also served under a Republican governor in multiple roles and is a contributor to numerous conservative research institutes.

[-] kescusay@lemmy.world 58 points 1 year ago

Yeah, this is bullshit. I charge my car at home by leaving it plugged in overnight. Costs me literally a few bucks a month to keep it charged. I don't even notice it on my electricity bill.

If I were charging at fee-based charging stations all the time, the story would be different, but who the hell does that?!?

[-] Zeshade@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago

We were looking at getting an EV without being able to charge it at home. Charging it at public chargers here in the UK would've cost about the same as petrol. But having to rely on the public charging infrastructure in its current state made us decide against it, at least for now.

[-] kescusay@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago

Out of curiosity, why couldn't you charge it at home? Most electric cars can have their chargers plugged into a standard wall outlet. It's slower, but it works fine.

[-] Munkisquisher@lemmy.nz 8 points 1 year ago

I live in a hilly suburb, there's a parking pad at road level which is far from my house and on council land. No way for me to install charging equipment. It's very common in my country.

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[-] iNeedScissors67@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I'd love to have one too but I live in the city now instead of the suburbs. My car is parked on a concrete pad in the alley behind my house, a good 80 feet from any electricity. I could probably charge at work though by just parking in the warehouse and plugging in to one of the many extension cords we have around.

[-] kescusay@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

I mean, if your employer doesn't mind, that could be a hell of a cost-effective way to keep it topped up.

[-] iNeedScissors67@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago

I'm the VP so I'd better be able to get away with it lol

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[-] 4shtonButcher@discuss.tchncs.de 5 points 1 year ago

Here in DK we are fine with public charging only. Still quite a bit cheaper than gas for a comparable car. And I suspect lower repair cost, (currently) free parking and eventual city closures for ICEs to be enough logical reasons for hesitant people. Personally I would have never bought an ICE. Felt bad enough getting a car at all.

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[-] AA5B@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

It seems inconsistent with other studies and the article only states results, not assumptions. Most importantly: where?

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[-] adeoxymus@lemmy.world 79 points 1 year ago

The whole article and the report, nowhere is it explained how they get their numbers. What fuel prices or electricity prices have they used, what mileage for the cars. It's kind of crucial info, and not really difficult to calculate either.

[-] NewNewAccount@lemmy.world 24 points 1 year ago

Yeah because the article is absolute bullshit. The bias was immediately evident.

[-] RetroEvolute@lemmy.world 31 points 1 year ago

Then why'd you post it? 😅

[-] KevonLooney@lemm.ee 10 points 1 year ago

It's provocative. It gets the people going.

Is this your first day on social media? People post 1 + 1 = 3 and get a ton of angry corrections.

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[-] RaoulDook@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I could give an easy estimate for the costs with napkin math. A quick gooble search says that a long-range EV might require up to 100 kWh of power to charge (high estimate) and where I live the electricity cost is about $0.11/kWh. That's $11 for a "fill up" of a long-range EV.

A tank of gas that could get me 300 miles is closer to $40.

$11 < $40.

[-] kiddblur@lemm.ee 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I've got real world math that basically backs this up (you can find my other comment in this thread if you want all the juicy details): My honda accord got 22mpg and had a 17 gallon tank, and gas here is $3.87. $66 to fill up and drive 374 miles = 17.6 cents per mile. My Model 3 Long Range has 77kWh usable and gets about 3.7 miles per kwh, my electricity is 15 cents per kwh (until i get solar next year), so $11.55 to fill up and drive 285 miles (so 4 cents per mile).

Yes the accord got about 90 miles more range, but cost 3 times as much to fuel and that range only matters (to me) on road trips, and my range has yet to be an issue in my model 3.

In fact I'm going on a 6 hour drive next week and according to ABRP I'll only have to make one 10 minute stop halfway to charge in order to get to my hotel (where I can charge up for free)

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[-] LetMeEatCake@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The report gives a quick summary of what they include, but not any details or math.

The cost of underlying energy (gas, diesel, electric)
State excise taxes charged for road maintenance
The cost to operate a pump or charger
The cost to drive to a fueling station (deadhead miles)

Elsewhere it says it assumes 12k miles in a year and is focused on the midwest and Michigan in particular. As it so happens, Michigan charges for registration based on the car value. EVs cost more than ICE vehicles in the same market segment most of the time. This would fall under excise taxes that they include.

I wouldn't be surprised if they also tacked on the cost to install a L2 charger once as "cost to operate a pump or charger" — intentionally ignoring that it's a one-time fee to support EVs at a home. With those two data points they could easily add >$1000 to the cost to "charge" an EV for one year if that is what they wanted to do.

The people making the report clearly picked criteria that sounds reasonable but also intentionally misleads people. Not a surprise.

[-] reddig33@lemmy.world 34 points 1 year ago

Research firm is bullshitting. It costs like $1-$2 for me to fill up my car with electricity at home.

[-] tekchic@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago

Agreed. I have spent $8 in the past month, and I have a 60 mile round trip commute to the office 2 days a week.

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[-] SloppyPuppy@lemmy.world 17 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Where i live its literally 5 times cheaper. I call bullshit.

[-] pectoralis@lemm.ee 14 points 1 year ago

Not in my experience. Perhaps if you were charging at a location which charges an inflated rate. At my current electrical costs in Canada, electric is cheaper per kilometre.

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[-] Poofypuma@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago

From August 2022 to August 2023 I’ve spent $220 dollars TOTAL on keeping my EV charged…

[-] DarkGamer@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

From the original study:

Notes: Costs are calculated for vehicles driving 12,000 purposeful miles per year. Uses energy prices, gas taxes, and EV registration fees in the Midwest or State of Michigan. Representative models within segments were selected on the basis of sales volume and to include a variety of manufacturers. Entry, mid, and luxury segments are defined based on typical purchase price. ...

As in the first edition, AEG calculated all four categories of costs involved in fueling both EVs and ICE vehicles across benchmark use cases that reflect real-world driving conditions for U.S. households. The costs included:

  • The cost of the underlying energy (gasoline or diesel fuel, or electricity)
  • State excise taxes charged on fuel and EVs for road maintenance
  • The cost of operating a pump or charger
  • The cost of driving to and from fueling stations (deadhead miles)

This seems like the Anderson Economic Group is playing with statistics to make gas cars seem more attractive.

If you look at this map of savings with EVs vs. gas cars, you'll find that most states have much larger savings with electric vehicles over gas vehicles, and there's still savings when driving in Michigan by their accounting!

Michigan is the most expensive state to run an electric vehicle with an average annual cost of $5,076

TL;DR: Disregard this study.

[-] NevermindNoMind@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

So if I was to be really generous, this study shows, at best, that it's cheaper to own a ICE car if your living in an apartment without charging capabilities in Michigan?

[-] Yantantethera@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

Does not include the cost of environmental impact of burning fossil fuels... Which we are all starting to pay.

[-] ericbandrews@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago

Well this article just isn't right at all

I drive an entry level EV (Hyundai Kona) that advertises 4mi/kWh, which is roughly accurate (2-3 in the winter, 5-7 in the summer). That's 25 kWh for 100 miles.

Average cost of electricity in the US is, according to a quick Google, somewhere between $.15 and $.25 per kWh; where I live it's a steeper $.33.

Therefore, depending on where I charge, I'm paying anywhere between $3.75 and $8.25 to drive 100 miles--$1.50 short of the article's published $9.78 even with my expensive power.

In reality, though, I pay nothing--my office offers free charging. Show me an office with free gas.

[-] QuinceDaPence@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago

If you have a Rivian R1T or GMC Hummer, the cost to charge at home isn't much different; it's about $17.70 per 100 miles.

Assuming the manufacturers claims are accurate (which is a big assumtion I know) that R1T, at the current US average electricity price of $16.14 per kWh, is $7.26/100mi.

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[-] BombOmOm@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

This is pretty similar to the numbers I ran myself. Public charging costs about the same as gas, and home electricity (particularly if in a cheap area) is where the savings come from. This was using US numbers, which has some of the cheapest gas in the world.

[-] WidowsFavoriteSon@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

Cost to fill up is not cost of ownership.

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[-] Green_Bay_Guy@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

...how? Like, it cost $30 (10 gal) to fill my petrol car in the states. Even if I was using 150kwh in electricity, at my power rate in Wisconsin ($.13/kWh), it's $19.95. I live in Vietnam now, and pay 2500 VND per kWh, and petrol is about 23500vnd/litre. I have an electric moped that goes 110km/charge, and has a usable capacity of about 0.7kwh. I rarely empty the battery, but even if I did it daily, it would be .08USD/day.

I'd like to see the math crunched on this.

Edit: I found the math. It's dishonest. Shocker.

[-] kiddblur@lemm.ee 3 points 1 year ago

It's actually not as bad as I was expecting. The electricity prices seem to be about right (17 cents per kwh at home, 43 cents at fast chargers), and the idea of having to drive farther to get to a charger is likely a reality for apartment dwellers.

The two shitty parts are that they included the cost of the charger in this which is obviously a one time expense, and they calculated that "mostly at home" users would still supercharge 20% of the time, which seems like a TON. I put 21K miles on my car in the past year, and I supercharged 470/6897 total kWh, so 7%. If you rectify both those things in their math (let's say maybe 10% is average?) then the "at home" EVs clearly win.

But it is absolutely viable to point out that if you can't charge at home (or at work, although I personally wouldn't want to tie myself to an employer to be able to charge my car. I already hate that we do it for health insurance), then it is going to be much more expensive than for people who do, and possibly more expensive than similar gas cars. For example, I had a VW ID.4 for a year and it got AWFUL efficiency for my driving patterns (about 2 mi per kWh) and I exclusively fast charged at the local electrify america station because it was free.

If I had had to pay retail price for the EA charging for the 10,000 miles that I drove, 48 cents per kWh * 5000 kWh, that would've cost me $2400 to charge, which is absolutely more than it would've cost to just drive our CRV instead (25mpg, $3.87 for gas over 10K miles = $1548).

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[-] ChairmanMew@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

This is absolutely stupid. The only way you're spending more on EV charging is if you get the most expensive at-home charger with the most expensive professional installation, and then never use it because you only charge at the most expensive level-3 chargers. I almost exclusively charge my Bolt for free, but even when I pay for the electricity it's the cost equivalent of getting 120-150 mpg. The level-3 chargers like Electrify America come out to be in the same ballpark as gas in terms of cost per mile, maybe even a little more... But you'd have to use them to ridiculous excess for the overall cost of driving to even approach ICE vehicles.

[-] Raise_a_glass@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago

If we are talking just filling up - I went from $200/month with gasoline to $15-20/ month with my ev and charging at home. Obviously YMMV

[-] djvinniev77@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

I'm not reading further down the line to see but did anyone notice the pic used in this post to show someone not understanding where their fuel door is? Back out and back in correctly and pump gas like a normal human being.

[-] iguessineedtosignup@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago

That's a Costco, they specificially tell you to use any lane and the hose is long enough to reach. That person is just following directions. The stations are built with one way traffic flow and get very busy, it's not practical to queue for a particular side of the car.

[-] djvinniev77@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

Ah! Today I learned that happens. Thanks for letting me know.

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[-] Evil_Shrubbery@lemmy.zip 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Price of gas is not the cost of gas.

It should include a way of getting the gases back into non-gas form and to reverse/mitigate any damages caused in the process. And the same for all of the supply chains (for gas and electricity, and any product really), can't produce that much waste on a finite planet & just forget about it if there are no (complete, non-bs) recycling processes, natural or man-made.

Thats why plastic very much isn't cost-efficient, it's just cheap bcs legislators allow it to be.

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this post was submitted on 02 Aug 2023
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