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Grayjay is not Open Source (hiphish.github.io)
submitted 1 year ago by rglullis@communick.news to c/foss@beehaw.org

Today FUTO released an application called Grayjay for Android-based mobile phones. Louis Rossmann introduced the application in a video (YouTube link). Grayjay as an application is very promising, but there is one point I take issue with: Grayjay is not an Open Source application. In the video Louis explains his reason behind the custom license, and while I do agree with his reason, I strong disagree with his method. In this post I will explain what Open Source means, how Grayjay does not meet the criteria, why this is an issue, and how it can be solved.

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[-] fmstrat@lemmy.nowsci.com 57 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Personal opinion, but the license is fine, and this is a sensationalist headline. The author's claims are not proven correct, and they even write:

The second point is weird. I am not certain, but this too could be considered discrimination...

They are not certain because they are incorrect.

As it stands, it sounds like a variant of GPL which they're using to make sure they don't get sued if it's used maliciously, along with ~~ensuring companies don't try to profit on what they give away~~ (read comment below for better details).

I'm open to changing my mind, but it would need to be changed.

[-] jarfil@beehaw.org 18 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

ensuring companies don't try to profit on what they give away.

That's a common misunderstanding of FLOSS software: it isn't about "not letting others profit", it's about "you need to give back in order to profit".

If a company wants to profit from someone else's GPL licensed software, they can do it in exchange for letting the original company profit from the second one's changes to the software.

If you don't want to profit from other people's changes to your software, then by all means, use a more restrictive license, there won't be changes in the first place.

If you're a user expecting the software to work after the original company got bored with it or gone under, then you want either a different company to take over, or you're SOL.

[-] fmstrat@lemmy.nowsci.com 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

This is a great clarification, thank you. I edited my comment to point to yours there.

[-] t3rmit3@beehaw.org 37 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

It prevents commercial distribution of the program, and thus it discriminates against persons and groups who wish to distribute the program commercially.

Uhhhh what? That's not how any of that works.

"No discrimination against persons or groups" is about protected classes.

Interpreting it to mean "anyone for any reason" would mean that open source allows people to simply assert sole ownership of it, because to not allow them to is to discriminate against people who want to assert sole ownership. That's an ad absurdum broadening of the OSI ethos.

Edit: a helpful commenter has found where on OSI's website it does prohibit non-commercial-use clauses...

...and the blog author was in fact incorrect in their assertion that it violates the personal discrimination clause (clause 5). It is a violation of Clause 6, “No Discrimination Against Field of Endeavor.” Also, the section specifically talks about prohibiting its use by a business, which is not the same as its sale by a business.

Let's say Alice develops an application with maintainer lock-in, but for whatever reason the need for a fork arises. Bob has been studying the code and knows how to maintain in properly. However, because Alice's code has a non-commercial redistribution clause Bob cannot make money off his maintainership. If the software is sufficiently complex that Bob has to spend a lot of time on it, or if Bob must be able to provide paid support (e.g. for regulatory reasons) he is not allowed to do so. Only Alice can demand financial compensation and thus in practice she is the only one who can afford to maintain the code.

Oh no. This person literally IS trying to just be able to start charging money for someone else's code.

[-] rglullis@communick.news 17 points 1 year ago

This person literally IS trying to just be able to start charging money for someone else’s code.

That happens all the time, never has been a problem, and it should not ever be.

[-] t3rmit3@beehaw.org 31 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

"People steal the profits from others' labor all the time, that's normal and good." - You

[-] rglullis@communick.news 12 points 1 year ago

People build on top of each other's work all the time. That's normal and good.

If the people selling are passing someone else's work as their own, that's stealing. Otherwise, it's just Free Software working as intended.

If someone is writing software but wants to prevent redistribution, then go ahead and make a license that forbids it. But then don't get to call it "Open Source" or anything like that.

[-] t3rmit3@beehaw.org 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

If the people selling are passing someone else’s work as their own, that’s stealing.

Which they are, unless they somehow only charge you for the portion of the code they wrote, in which case it wouldn't run afoul of this license anyways, since you're not charging for Grayjay. :)

Also, looking at OSD.org, nothing requires allowing commercial redistribution of the original code outside of as a component of an aggregate package, in rule 1.

Rule 3 says that derived works must be allowed (and says nothing about being charged money for) using the same license as with the original distribution, which would in this case mean a license that restricts commercial redistribution.

Also, the author of this has clearly not read many of the OSI licenses, because MANY of them revoke the license if patent litigation is initiated against the distributor:

7.2 If You institute patent litigation against any entity (including a cross-claim or counterclaim in a lawsuit) alleging that the Covered Source or a Product constitutes direct or contributory patent infringement, or You seek any declaration that a patent licensed to You under this Licence is invalid or unenforceable then any rights granted to You under this Licence shall terminate as of the date such process is initiated.

[-] rglullis@communick.news 7 points 1 year ago

The point is super simple: if the author of Grayjay has any provision in the license saying anything to the effect of "you can only redistribute this under certain conditions", then it's not Open source as defined by OSI. You may not agree with it and you might fully support Grayjay's opinion, it doesn't change the fact that it. is. not. open. source.

[-] t3rmit3@beehaw.org 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Can you please link to where on opensource.org it says that? This just sounds like your or a general community interpretation. I don't see that in writing anywhere.

I literally quoted their website NOT saying what you claim, and your only response is, "nuh uh, it's what I said."

[-] brie@beehaw.org 10 points 1 year ago
[-] t3rmit3@beehaw.org 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Thank you, that is a good find. The other person I've been talking to hasn't been able to cite anything from them. I've updated my top-level comment with this info.

Interestingly, I wonder if they distinguish commercial use from commercial distribution, which the author is talking about. Not allowing someone to use the software as a business is very different from not allowing them to sell it as a product.

edit: Reading more into this, I do think this is about prohibiting use of software by commercial entities, not prohibiting entities from selling the software. Apparently this is actually a point of disputation within the community, with people like Richard Stallman insisting that you can prohibit commercial redistribution and be Open Source.

This makes sense as to why Clause 1 only asserts that it must be freely-redistributable when bundled together with software from other sources.

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[-] madkarlsson@beehaw.org 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

If the people selling are passing someone else's work as their own, that's stealing. Otherwise, it's just Free Software working as intended.

Do you not see the contradiction in this statement? Where do you find the line of what is stealing and "working as intented"?

If someone is writing software but wants to prevent redistribution, then go ahead and make a license that forbids it. But then don't get to call it "Open Source" or anything like that.

There are so many licenses for this model already, I'm inclined to believe that you havent actually published any OSS yourself and your attitude in these threads are mildly said, off putting.

I am a big fan of OSI and support their work, but you are treating them (based in what i can read in this thread) like some holy, all defining entity, of what is open source. They are not, and true open source, cannot, and should not, ever derive its power from a central agency setting rules and definitions. If that happens, that will be the end of open source.

Please stop gatekeeping OSS, it hurts all of us

Edit: some autocomplete stupid grammar

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[-] hiddengoat@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago

I suggest you learn how free software actually works unless you want to look like an idiot.

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[-] dannym@lemmy.escapebigtech.info 31 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Let's not make this sound worse than it is. We don't need to devolve into Stallman everytime we see software that's not 100% in agreement with the GPL or other extreme licenses. Let's celebrate some great software, nitpicking like this is not productive. Their license is perfect for their product; at the very least they're HONEST unlike big tech companies. I'd rather have "source available" code than proprietary bullshit that can only be understood by spending months looking at it with ghidra

[-] fwygon@beehaw.org 31 points 1 year ago

I don't agree with the assessment of the OP or the original blog article. Grayjay is Open Source software.

It is, however, NOT FREE SOFTWARE and I do know that organizations like the FSF and OSI do not consider it to be free.

The free status of this software was never misrepresented by Louis Rossman. He blatantly explains that there is a cost to this software and that the license is how he plans to enforce his means of collecting this fee on the honor system.

He also outlines how he cannot; and will not...stop anyone from forking this software and basically removing the payment bits of the code and just redistributing it under a different name. I strongly recommend someone does that...and maybe license that work under a much more unrestrictive free license that FLOSS-Only users might find more palatable.

I get that nobody wants or needs to trust Louis to keep his word. He's gotta run a business at some point...and distributing this software this way on the honor system might not pan out quite the same way he hopes it will. I do hope that at the point where he and his compatriots choose to stop maintaining the application; that they do immediately retcon this restrictive license; and re-release it under a new, free, and unrestrictive Open Source Software license.

[-] Scary_le_Poo@beehaw.org 5 points 1 year ago

He also outlines how he cannot; and will not...stop anyone from forking this software and basically removing the payment bits of the code and just redistributing it under a different name. I strongly recommend someone does that...and maybe license that work under a much more unrestrictive free license that FLOSS-Only users might find more palatable.

This is incorrect. You cannot fork this project. You CAN, however, modify it for your own personal use. You cannot distribute it. Redistribution is specifically what he wants to avoid happening, and that's why the license is what it is.

[-] Maestro@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago

If it's not OSI approved then it's not open source. I hate it when companies try to dilute the open source moniker. This is "source available"

[-] rwhitisissle@beehaw.org 8 points 1 year ago

If it’s not OSI approved then it’s not open source.

OSI as an organization did not invent the concept of Open Source software. They just appointed themselves the arbiters of the term. There are other organizations and individuals that disagree with their definition.

[-] Maestro@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Most organisations and individuals that disagree with their definition are trying to sell you source available software as open source.

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[-] wildginger@lemmy.myserv.one 6 points 1 year ago

Why does OSIs definition matter over any other definition?

[-] Maestro@kbin.social 8 points 1 year ago

Because the OSI has been defining and stewarding open source for 25 years. It is the de facto definition and has been recognised as such by multiple governments around the world. Anyone trying to muddy the waters is probably trying to sell you their "source available" software as open source.

[-] jack@monero.town 4 points 1 year ago

Show me "any other defintion" of open source that is as widely known and accepted as the one from OSI.

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[-] yozul@beehaw.org 25 points 1 year ago

Open source is not a very useful term. Grayjay isn't free and libre software because it restricts commercial use, and it is definitely source available software. Whether that makes it open source depends on who you ask, and no, OSI is not the undisputed arbiter of all things open source just because they say so.

Griping because someone is using a different definition of open source than you do when they are being very clear about what exactly their license allows is not productive.

[-] jack@monero.town 4 points 1 year ago

Fuck you! Do not feel offended, in my culture "fuck you" means "I agree with you". I will not let mainstream opinion limit what I can say, my definition is valid.

[-] yozul@beehaw.org 10 points 1 year ago

The point you are attempting to make here is irrelevant and incorrect. The entire problem is that there is no consensus mainstream opinion on the meaning of the phrase open source.

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[-] library_napper@monyet.cc 23 points 1 year ago

You skipped the part about wtf the app is and why we should care.

[-] dingleberry@discuss.tchncs.de 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Grayjay is a platform that allows users to view YouTube alongside paid content like Patreon, or even live platforms like Twitch.

So I guess one more middleman between content and consumer.

Edit: their website loaded after 5 mins

So they are like: "don't open twitch. open our website, it's literally the same thing". A super-app for video streaming? Who asked for this, and why?

[-] lemillionsocks@beehaw.org 10 points 1 year ago

The idea behind it per the video where they introduced it is that its a means of creators to take ownership of their own content. The idea being that if you follow creator X on youtube you arent actually following creator x you're following them on youtube. If something happens or youtube removes a video for whatever reason of they have to leave the platform then you lose access to their content.

If you're on this app you follow creator x on whatever platform they are on. So in theory it's not just an all in one app but a way to solve the youtube monopoly and make for an easy transition.

In concept I think it sounds really cool, but whether it actually is able to deliver on it's goals remains to be seen.

[-] lemann@lemmy.one 5 points 1 year ago

Who asked for this, and why?

It exists to reduce dependence on YouTube.

There are bad things to say about Google all day, yet consumers will still line right back up to use Google's video service without fail. Having that content mixed in with other sites reduces dependence on YouTube over time, as creators consider decentralizing their media presence and posting content on Patreon, Nebula etc, instead of Youtube's walled garden of Communities, Memberships and of course the channel itself.

IMO right now this app is really for people who want to support OR already are supporting creators, and are displeased with the amount of apps, bad UX and poor integration this experience entails when done outside of Youtube's platform

If that's not for you, then maybe the privacy aspect of Grayjay is of interest, where the YouTube integration allows you to control what data is associated with your Google account. Aside from those, most people should probably stick with their existing YouTube client. This app is targeting a specific kind of audience, and fits right in with Rossmann's

[-] sanzky@beehaw.org 4 points 1 year ago

I dont think it is only about this app. it is mostly about how the concept of Open Source has been redefined. Sometimes it feels like "source code is available" the same as Open Source (the code is there open, for you to see ,right?).

[-] madkarlsson@beehaw.org 6 points 1 year ago

Imo it's not been redefined at all. People are just pushing the boundaries of what it means and creating absolutist views on what it should mean. There is a space for that sure, but shaming companies that define where their own boundaries are is not the way of it.

If we do that, you are challenging what software freedom actually is if you ask me

[-] 18107@aussie.zone 18 points 1 year ago

I thought that open source just meant that you could read the source.

[-] Kissaki@feddit.de 14 points 1 year ago

It's how I intuitively read it too, even after decades of being exposed to tech, software, and licenses.

There's the OSI Open Source Definition, which is a free software definition.

I think the free terminology is clearer because free as in beer vs freedom is more obvious. Either it has a price or it doesn't. The Libre term is rather common alternative because of the ambiguity. The free as in beer or freedom is a common easy to understand explanation.

There's no such things for open source. In my subjective experience at least. "Source available" did not establish like Libre. Open is way more broadly ambiguous than free. And whether a license is open or open needs a full understanding and interpretation rather than only 'does it cost or can I use it for free.

Free is a dualist ambiguous differentiation. Open is broadly ambiguous and hard to verify.

[-] chameleon@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago

"Open source" has more or less always meant something very specific as defined by the Open Source Definition. Adding restrictions on top like no commercial use or no lawsuits turns it into "source available".

[-] t3rmit3@beehaw.org 17 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

My issue is with the fact that FUTO wishes to have exclusive rights to monetise Grayjay. The public should have the right to vote with their wallets on who they want to maintain their software. If someone else can do a better job than FUTO, why should he not get paid? Yes, FUTO are the ones who spent money upfront to develop Grayjay in the first place, but they are also the ones from whom people will be buying at first. No one is going to pay Bob instead just because he changed the icon. But if FUTO were to drop the ball at some point in the future and Bob were to pick it up, why should Bob not be able to get paid?

Because there are companies who would to pay no dev costs, slap their branding on something, and monetize it, but who will also use their market clout (or walled garden control) to not provide a better product, but just make buying it from the actual developers less convenient, or limit interoperability with the original product.

We do not live in a world of conscientious consumers who will go out of their way to pay the developers who actually made something, we live in a world where whoever's version is at the top of the app store gets the most downloads.

No one is going to pay Bob instead just because he changed the icon.

This is just ridiculously naive. When Bob is actually named 'Amazon', 'Microsoft', 'Google', etc, people will trust them more than random app developer company.

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[-] splendoruranium@infosec.pub 15 points 1 year ago

I personally nerver really understood the whole semantics debate that always unfolds in situations like this. What does it matter if a piece of software is truly libre or how it is licensed as long as the source code is available? Respecting a license is a choice. If you have the code you can fork it. Whether it's libre or not only influences your ability to put your real name under the fork, doesn't it?

[-] rglullis@communick.news 7 points 1 year ago

Respecting a license is a choice.

The source code from windows have been leaked a few times already. Try repackaging it or redistributing with modifications, see how far it will go before you get sued into oblivion.

[-] madkarlsson@beehaw.org 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Your argument falls flat because the Windows source code has never been distributed under open source licenses. Access to the source code does not mean you can redistribute it automatically. Hence its a choice. If you choose to redistribute closed source code, that's on you.

[-] rglullis@communick.news 6 points 1 year ago

Windows source code has never been distributed under open source licenses.

Neither has Grayjay's, which is why it's important to have a precise definition of what "Open Source" means.

[-] t3rmit3@beehaw.org 5 points 1 year ago

Windows has never been distributed under a source available license. Grayjay has. The distinction of legal liability still persists.

Grayjay cannot sue you for distributing the source code for free.

Microsoft can, for Windows.

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[-] jack@monero.town 11 points 1 year ago

I'm getting brain damage from this thread. So many stupid people here.

[-] admin@beehaw.org 8 points 1 year ago

We have only one rule here...be(e) nice. Your comments are NOT nice...enjoy a weeks vacation from Beehaw.

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[-] Th4tGuyII@kbin.social 9 points 1 year ago

One can certainly argue it's not "open source" so much as "source available", but I don't think it's that controversial.

They're providing a product, and obviously don't want other people slapping their name on it and selling what they worked hard to make. Their license makes it easier for them to enforce that.

They also obviously don't want people creating malicious forks of their program, like what keeps happening with NewPipe. So their license also makes it easier for them to enforce that.

If you want to encourage more companies to make their source code available, then maybe we shouldn't shit on those that are.

Plus, per Rossman's own words, you don't even have to buy Grayjay for it to work, it'll just ask you, ala Winrar. Give them a break.

[-] rglullis@communick.news 6 points 1 year ago

One can certainly argue it's not "open source" so much as "source available".

That's the whole argument. It can be a very nice and useful product, but just don't say "it's open source"

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[-] jet@hackertalks.com 8 points 1 year ago

Ecosystem - the blog author doesn't mention that to be open source, you need to be part of the ecosystem that other developers can build upon. Without the ecosystem the internet and our lives would be very different today.

[-] amki@feddit.de 7 points 1 year ago

The developer can yank the software from under you, he can change the monetisation model, or he can drop support for the software. With Free or Open Source software you could just take over the responsibility of maintainership or outsource it some other developer you can trust instead.

Sure, good point but in the real world this will never happen.

If Mozilla suddenly decides to implode you won't just casually take over Firefox or hire another maintainer to develop it for you.

In theory this sounds nice but for any software that is of any real complexity (and thus use) it is pretty much irrelevant.

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[-] Rentlar@beehaw.org 6 points 1 year ago

It's non-free, it's non-libre, but it does pass the bar of open source software. The OSI, EFF, RMS or whoever don't have to say it is in order for it to be true.

You can distribute it but there are limitations on it, you can make a fork of Grayjay that is free to use, review, re-distribute and add parts to it adhering to other open source licenses from whence they were developed as long as it's non-commercial, and doesn't make any representations on behalf of FUTO or Rossman, essentially.

[-] confusedbytheBasics@beehaw.org 4 points 1 year ago

What is this in rebuttal to? I don't see any claim of being open source on https://grayjay.app/.

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