«Ukraine has open borders, regular elections, etc.»: Advisor to the head of the OP Podoliak denies accusations of dictatorship : worldnews

[–] Dengalicious@lemmygrad.ml 19 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Banning political parties, overthrowing your political opponents, arresting dissidents, and killing ethnic Russians in the east of the country are all markers of a functioning democracy!

Why, all the other democracies in the world need to take a page out of Ukraine’s book, start funding all of your news sources with foreign aid!

[–] bennieandthez@lemmygrad.ml 11 points 2 weeks ago

When they purge the opposition, its to preserve freedom™. When others do it, its to grip power 😞

[–] wurzelgummidge@lemmy.ml 16 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

regular elections

Regularly overthrown because the winner wasn't who the US wanted

[–] lefixxx@lemmy.world -4 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

Source?

[–] Grapho@lemmy.ml 8 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

It was obvious even back in 2014 https://www.mintpressnews.com/road-moscow-goes-kiev-coup-detat-threatens-russia/180712/

[–] bennieandthez@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 2 weeks ago

2014 coup?

[–] modulus@lemmy.ml 14 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Wow, it's like he chose those examples on purpose to make his argument as ridiculous as possible: open borders (except for all the people forbidden to leave), regular elections (except now they're indefinitely postponed)...

[–] bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org 8 points 2 weeks ago

Exactly! It's so ridiculous that it's funny. Literally everything he said is so easily debunked, and yet some liberals are not able to do even that.

[–] bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org 14 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

Lol, got reported for "bad-faith post", that's a new one, usually it's Russian propaganda or disinformation, a real pity that's not the case here.. :(

@moe93@lemmy.ml feel free to clarify why is it bad faith? :)
I posted news totally debunking the claim of those fucking tankies about Zelensky being a dictator, isn't it a good thing? I am on the good side now, fighting Russian disinformation campaign, in the name of the free world!

[–] bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org 9 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

I usually post "Russian propaganda", but today Ukrainian propaganda got so fucking ridiculous that I want to post it, I hope you don't mind :)

Ukraine DOES NOT have open borders, I don't think even the most liberal sources will deny that, . But here are several links (first articles from the search results) just in case:
https://www.dw.com/en/how-ukrainian-men-try-to-get-around-the-ban-to-leave-the-country/a-62529639
https://www.dw.com/en/how-ukrainian-men-try-to-get-around-the-ban-to-leave-the-country/a-62529639

Ukraine DOES NOT have " competitive political space", Zelensky banned opposing political parties. Again even liberal medias do not deny that, they merely justify it "bbbbut those are the bad ones!".
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/3/21/why-did-ukraine-suspend-11-pro-russia-parties
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-law-bans-pro-russia-parties-zelenskiy-signs/31849737.html

Ukraine DOES NOT have "competitive information space", Zelensky tries his best to silence any opposition.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/18/world/europe/ukraine-press-freedom.html
https://thehill.com/homenews/3795160-zelensky-signs-controversial-law-expanding-government-power-to-regulate-media/

And don't get me started on the elections.. Which are of course totally unnecessary because Zelensky is not a dictator and everybody supports him anyway....

[+] lefixxx@lemmy.world -7 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (2 children)

You post is basically anti Ukraine. How is this not ""russia propaganda"" and is ""Ukraine propaganda"". Your post history doesn't contain anti russia "propaganda".

Ukraine does have open borders. One exception for military ages males doesn't undo it.

During wartime with russia it makes sense to suspend parties with ties with russia. They are the bad ones because they have ties with russia. Russia disapproved this move basically legitimizing it. The states have done nothing to stop Russia's influence in their political system and now they are acting in Russia's interest.

Ukraine is under martial law. If zelesky "tried his best to silence the opposition" he wouldn't just "sign" a slightly oppressive law (that has already pass from a parliament?).

Don't bother answering with a half nonsensical answer. This reply is in the interest of people reading the comments

[–] bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org 10 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Ukraine does have open borders. One exception for military ages males doesn't undo it.

USA never had any slavery. One exception for black folks doesn't undo it.

Fuck, that's pure genius.

[+] lefixxx@lemmy.world -8 points 2 weeks ago (3 children)

USA had slavery because USA had slaves.

Ukraine has open borders because anyone can pass except Ukrainian men if military age.

[–] wellfill@lemmy.ml 10 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

US did not ever have slavery! Because noone was slave there except black people if they were not free.

Some hard hitting facts right there. I betcha you didnt know this.

[+] lefixxx@lemmy.world -7 points 2 weeks ago (4 children)

Since you really need this argument made;

To have slavery requires a minority to be enslaved. Not all us citizens needs to be slaves for the description to apply. To have slavery means to have all free people with an exception of a minority of slaves.

To have open borders requires a majority of people the be free to pass from them. Not all citizens need to be able to pass for the description to apply. To have open borders means to allow all people with an exception of a minority to pass.

This is as far as I will go to debate this stupid argument. Anyone with at least two braincells with understand my position.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 13 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

I understand your position.

But I think, to have open borders, it needs to be much more than a mere majority that are free to cross the border. "Military aged males" are a huge portion of the population, eyeballing it I'm coming up with 1/5th of the entire country.

If millions of people can't leave, there aren't open borders.

[+] lefixxx@lemmy.world -7 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

First halve that because you are only talking about exiting. Foreigns can enter and exit. Ukrainians can enter. People who cannot be conscripted can exit (women, too old, too disabled, guardians, single fathers, athletes, students etc). Ukraine is at war. I would say that 100% of people who should be able to pass can pass. The claim that Ukraine "DOES NOT have open borders" is false or grossly misleading.

[–] bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org 10 points 2 weeks ago

I would say that 100% of people who should be able to pass can pass.

Wow, your every comment is better than the previous one.

You would be the person saying "I would say that 100% of people who should be free are free" just a small time ago in USA...

You are the best example of why liberals are the most anti-liberty and pro-discrimination people out there.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 7 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

Ukrainians can enter. People who cannot be conscripted can exit (women, too old, too disabled, guardians, single fathers, athletes, students etc).

A one way border isn't exactly open and saying it is is what is grossly misleading.

[–] cone_zombie@lemmy.ml 7 points 2 weeks ago

"Why are you calling this facility a prison? Sure, you cannot leave, but at least you can ENTER!"

[–] wellfill@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 weeks ago

Yeah the US clearly has an open southern border. How could you not see that? /s

[–] bennieandthez@lemmygrad.ml 7 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

I'm dumb, i need to clarify this. so for the people that cannot pass, is it open borders or closed borders?

[–] cone_zombie@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 weeks ago

Open borders. Just not for them.

[–] Sodium_nitride@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 2 weeks ago

To have open borders requires a majority of people the be free to pass from them.

What's so special about 50%? Why not set the bar at 60% or 40%? Or 99% or 1%?

[–] wellfill@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

Alright so if I understand this well: Haiti under the French colonial rule did not have slavery during the times when the imported slave population exceeded some limit when compared to the French population there.

I will continue with a hypothetical: if for example more French came on a trip there and the not slaves would become a minority, there would all of a sudden be slavery there. And of course when they would depart from their holidays, Haiti would again gracefully abandon that heinous practice.

[–] bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org 8 points 2 weeks ago

USA had slavery because USA had slaves.

Ukraine has open borders because anyone can pass except Ukrainian men if military age.

I don't even know how to comment that. Liberals are fucked up animals.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 8 points 2 weeks ago

^ this is your brain on drugs

[–] Dengalicious@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 2 weeks ago

If you ban a huge amount of your country from leaving then you don’t have open borders. Simple as that. Banning men from leaving doesn’t make it an open border just because old women can leave.

[–] 211@sopuli.xyz 7 points 2 weeks ago (4 children)

Just because this needs to be said.

Open borders: Closed for Ukrainian men of military age during wartime. You, I, journalists, etc. can still come and go.

Competitive political space: Banned parties supporting the country they are currently at war with. No matter how you feel about who's at fault, that must be an understandable action to you. Also, most members of the largest banned party (Opposition Platform - For Life) are still in the parliament and just formed other parliamentary groups.

Competitive information space: Again, wartime with a country engaging in propaganda eagerly and with talent.

Elections: Would be against Ukrainian constitution to have elections under martial law, not to mention impossible to arrange or supervise. Or you think it would be possible to organise an election where everyone had easy and reliable access to vote right now? The decision was just confirmed unanimously yesterday, with all 17 previous members of the banned ...For Life -party who were present also voting for it.

[–] bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org 11 points 2 weeks ago

You, I, journalists, etc. can still come and go.

No, I can't. I am a "man of military age". So if I come back to Ukraine I will be prisoner there, along with millions of people there.

[–] bennieandthez@lemmygrad.ml 8 points 2 weeks ago

Thanks for explaining why North Korea is a democracy when it does seemingly undemocratic things because they're under a constant state of emergency due to US economic blockades, military threats and media warfare.

[–] modulus@lemmy.ml 6 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

You can dress it however you like, maybe even plead necessity, but what you can't do at the same time is say how democratic it is because this features exists (which they don't).

Edited for spelling.

[–] Sodium_nitride@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 2 weeks ago

Would be against Ukrainian constitution to have elections under martial law, not to mention impossible to arrange or supervise.

The term dictator is used today to almost always mean that someone wasn't elected to the highest office of their country. Since Zelensky's term expired a while ago, he is a dictator in that literal sense. Arguing that his dictatorship is legal doesn't really matter.

What does matter is that for quite some time now, the average Ukrainian citizen has had no choice about the direction that the country should be going in, especially in regards to whether they should sue for peace right now or how to end the war.

Of course, that's discounting the obvious that bourgeois republics are not really democratic to begin with, but even from the standards of bourgeois democracy, Ukraine fails.

World News

Rules: