This finale was fucking beautiful. I love that for innie Mark and Helly.
Feeling really sorry for Gemma breaking out of Lumon just to found herself separated from Mark again.
Also can we talk about Mr Milchick dancing with the Marching band?? Lord, the temperature in the house rose 30 degrees π₯
Milchick has raised some thermostats and eyebrows in my home as well. What a force. Also those shots from the marching band crotch level were intense... very effective.
Man.. That was a great episode, and leaves it at a cliffhanger where nobody knows where the story is going. I'm a bit disappointed at how many answers we didn't get this season, mainly
And also the two fake-out "Mark is reintegrating for real!" episodes in the season left a bad taste for me. That sideplot had ZERO payoff or consequences.
And it's starting to get a bit difficult suspending my belief that there's only ONE security guy in the entire company that manages 50 some people.
This is one of the best episodes in the series, but the season overall is a lot weaker than the first. But at least we got Milchick dancing again.
With Cobel, I wonder if she lied about Gemma being killed to get back at Lumon, since Cold Harbor was the miscarriage and not her or Mark's death we don't actually know they were going to kill her compared to just using the overtime contingency full time and suppressing her outie completely.
That being said they did kidnap her and wanted someone who was assumed dead so would be a cheap shot by the writers to make the whole thing a big misunderstanding
we donβt actually know they were going to kill her compared to just using the overtime contingency full time and suppressing her outie completely.
Mr. Drummond was actively strangling Mark S to death knowing Cold Harbor had been completed. He wouldn't have done that if they needed Mark S (or Gemma) for anything anymore.
So I agree that Drummond trying to kill Mark aligns with that, but it doesn't actually align with their previous actions.
For example Gemma doesn't go into the Cold Harbor room until Mark completes the room. However Gemma goes into the other rooms multiple times. We see in the dentist room innie Gemma believes she was just their. In the Christmas room innie Gemma is tired of the repetitive activity. So even at 100% completion they test the rooms multiple times. When Gemma goes into Cold Harbor they are testing to make sure it works.
If Cold Harbor was the pinnacle of their achievements, why would they only test that room once, when they tested other rooms multiple times?
If Cold Harbor was the pinnacle of their achievements, why would they only test that room once, when they tested other rooms multiple times?
I think the other rooms were gathering the data that Innie Mark was refining. They went to the other rooms multiple times to gather more data. Think like 'training data' for AI.
Cold Harbor was the test. That Innie Gemma was just about to pass the test before Outie Mark showed up was already showing they'd succeeded. If the test was for success, they achieved success. They wouldn't need to test it again if Outie Mark hadn't interfered. Even if they were planning on testing it with Gemma again, Drummond clearly already knew he could beat up Mark and kill him. Marks only sin was trying to get in a door, and Drummond decided that was enough for a death sentence. Which tells me they were already done with Mark.
Edit: I forgot to mention this. Lumon told us they were going to kill Gemma. They goat sacrifice was to be buried with a woman. Were there any other women the show told us were going to be killed? Not that I heard of
So I also thought the other rooms were gathering data for Mark. For example you put Gemma in the dentist room then give the data to Mark. Mark then refines the data until Gemma "perfects" the room.
But from what we see if Cold Harbor, Gemma doesn't go in until it's done.
Now it is possible that Cold Harbor is the final test. If Gemma can "solve" Cold Harbor without refinement, she can "solve" anything.
Of course if Mark can disrupt the test and convince Gemma to go with him, perhaps the test or overall process itself is flawed. Gemma as Ms Casey was surely one of the first tests to confirm that Gemma would not be swayed by Mark. Yet here she clearly is.
The "Fuck" from Jame Eagan may not just be the appearance of Mark and his meddling, but the realization that the entire experiment is flawed.
We know Kier/Lumon/Jame stole from Cobel. It's possible they only now realized how unqualified they are.
But of course all this rests on the idea that Cold Harbor only had one solution and one test, which seems odd.
I added an edit to my post you replied to: Lumon told us they were going to kill Gemma within a few minutes/hours. The goat sacrifice Drummond said was to be buried with a woman to lead her spirit to Keir. Were there any other women the show told us were going to be killed? Not that I heard of.
Oh I completely agree. I think Lumon had every intention of killing Gemma. I think Drummond knew that. But I just find it so odd given their other behavior.
I'm pretty sure they were going to kill Gemma? Remember that Drummond said they were killing the goat to bury it with (a great woman) so that it could guide her back to Kier? I'm pretty sure he was referring to Gemma there.
Hell yeah, after several slow episodes in this season, we are finally advancing with the story!
πΏ(ββ βΏβ )πΏ
Certified Milchick ππΏββ‘οΈππΏββ‘οΈππΏββ‘οΈ
My thoughts about rentegration not being white and black solution were correct, but it's a shame we haven't seen any reintegrated Mark in this season.
Mark S and Helly might have run into the ~~sunset~~ cold LEDs, but sadly there will be no honeymoon for them.
Next season's premiere must be stronger than this one, because they can't pull everything under the rug, and return to the previous status quo, like they partially did in this season.
Maybe third season should be the last one, to avoid dragging the story.
They have said they have a path and ultimate end in mind - let them tell the story they set out to tell. It's a rare case where they know where this is going, unlike LOST where they didn't already know the answer to questions they were asking. It won't drag.
Lumon hired and severed a lot of people to have a kickarse band on that floor. I... don't mind I guess?
I mean that is an interesting question.
In season 1 Mark and everyone else were just cogs in a machine.
In season 2 Mark is so special that Jame Eagan is now observing him.
That's not necessarily a bad thing, but what is Lumon up to?
The very ending of Mark S going away with Helly R was beyond stupid of him.
I get that he doesn't want to "die". I get that he loves Helly R. What Mark S just did set himself up to be in Mark Scout's state of tragedy before Mark Scout the took the job at Lumon before that Mark S gets destroyed forever.
There was nowhere for Mark S and Helly R to escape on the Severed Floor. They will be found, and quickly. With Cold Harbor done, there is no need for Helly R to be on the Severed Floor so she will never return as soon as Mark S and Helly R are found and Helly R is dragged back to the elevator to become Helena Egan again. So Mark S loses her making Mark S lose the love of his life, just like Mark Scout did when he lost Gemma.
Here's where the real hell begins. The Mark Scout/Gemma + Mark S/Gemma's brain process was interrupted (destroyed?) by Mark Scout on the black elevator floor. Except...... there's nothing preventing Lumon from simply wiping Mark S's memory by creating a NEW Mark S Innie! They even said in the episode that 24 Gemma Innies had been created, one for each "file"/room. So they can easily create new Mark S innie, put him in MDR, and drag Gemma back down to the basement again and force her through another 25 rooms. A new Gemma Innie is created in each one, so if they can create 25 before, 50 doesn't seem to be an issue. As for Mark Scout, they'll keep him in a prison somewhere just like they did with Gemma. Mark Scout will have no memory as NEW Mark S Innie and Lumon still gets the exact outcome they want from the first time around. Mark S is an idiot.
Original Mark S lost the love of his life, erased his own existence, and doomed Gemma and Mark Scout to hell on Earth trapped for the rest of their lives in prisons.
I'm cautiously optimistic there's something else Helly R and Mark S can do (or think they can do) and we just don't know where they're running to yet. Mark S knows his work is done, especially after what he did to Drummond, regardless of what he thinks about his outie's motivations. If you were at that exit stairwell (can he even use it? Helly couldn't π€·) and you knew that life inside was 100% hopeless then surely you'd take your chances with your outie's reintegration.
OTC was a convenient plot development for making the situation more flexible and it wouldn't surprise me if we see another.
Iβm cautiously optimistic thereβs something else Helly R and Mark S can do (or think they can do) and we just donβt know where theyβre running to yet.
Wasn't it quite obvious that they were about to begin a revolution from within Lumon? Dylan just recruited like 50 people (and Helly was with him prior to that) and Mark just revolted against Drummond with the help of the batshit goat lady (who was already close to snapping prior to Mark's intervention).
Iβm cautiously optimistic thereβs something else Helly R and Mark S can do (or think they can do) and we just donβt know where theyβre running to yet.
If you were at that exit stairwell (can he even use it?)
If there is, the writers of the show are being completely disingenuous to the audience. How many episodes in Season 1 and Season 2 were spent showing us all the ways they couldn't escape the severed floor. Yes he could have used the stairway. They explored this in Season 1 where they are standing at the door and the innie walks out, then the innie "wakes up" inside the door again because the outie walked them back in.
Helly R tried to actually commit suicide in the elevator as a way to exit. If the writers suddenly come up with "oh yeah the secret door we've never tried that lets us have a happy ending together" then they've treated us all like idiots.
OTC was a convenient plot development for making the situation more flexible and it wouldnβt surprise me if we see another.
OTC was used more the Season 1 finale. Remember Dylan Innie "waking up" in his clothes closet at home? It was also used on the ORTBO.
The very ending of Mark S going away with Helly R was beyond stupid of him.
I got the impression that that was Helena, not Helly.
A great episode to end the season, though it did confirm my suspicions that the writing has been heavily padded. If they had tried to build up to this episode any more than it would have likely spoiled some of the big moments and reveals, so instead they had to have several episodes (including one that was egregiously short) where very little happened to tread water until the finale. To distract from that, they tried to make those episodes as visually interesting as possible. I predict that once future seasons have aired, it will become quite obvious that the finale of this season should not have been a finale at all but rather the culmination of a second act coming in somewhere around the episode 7 - 8 mark.
I can't believe I'm reading all these comments about this season being "padded". I've watched through the whole season again this week in advance of the finale and I just couldn't disagree more. We gained CRUCIAL information and back story throughout. Every episode was riveting. I don't get where everyone's coming from.
I'm of two minds about this.
The sweet vitriol episode built out the world in a really interesting and character-centered way, but it interrupted a really important development that was moving the story forward so it felt like slamming on the breaks
If that episode had come after the return of Irving, Dillan, and Hellena instead of right after Mark's ayahuasca trip, it wouldn't have felt quite so jarring.
It's a shame because I really liked that episode, I just couldn't enjoy it as much because I was dying to know what happened with Mark (I'm still kind of dying for more details)
Iβm of two minds about this.
Pun intended?
Yeah, I do get that. I really liked how they took full episode deviations and explored the world more, like an episode 4 in Woe's Hollow or Sweet Vitriol. Chikhai Bardo definitely leaves you hanging with Sweet Vitriol right after... But it gives you another week to think about it. Same with episode 1, then 2. They're telling stories of the exact same time frame, but you're off the Severed floor for a full week until Who's Alive - and episode 3 definitely paid off both episodes for me.
I completely agree that there was no padding. The only thing close is the setup in episode 9, in order to give episode 10 the flow it needed.
For example if we look at Gwendolyn Christie's Goat caretaker character we could have used a filler episode to better show her journey. If we watch her scenes back to back it isn't surprising she turned on Drummond. We could have used an episode where Mark is just wandering and talking to her again as a reminder. Unfortunately there isn't time after her first appearance where that could have happened.
Similarly Cobel is absent for half the season. We could have used something to keep her story alive, but instead we get a one episode character dump. That isn't a mistake. Slowly drip feeding her story is an option, but the one episode build up and reveal was an excellent choice.
I'm pretty much on your camp. I was fascinated by every episode. I won't say I enjoyed each episode equally though! :D
With a finale like that, I have to admit, I broke the rule too!
I don't know if this episode could satisfy my strong desire to just understand what exactly Lumon is doing here. The most dissatisfying thing is they didn't really answer what's going on with Cold Harbor. But aside from that I loved this season.
Like yes, more implications about Cold Harbor are confirmed. There seems to be a connection between Lumon and their aim to remove tragic memories, hence their approval when Gemma doesn't react emotionally to dismantling the baby crib. I can even see a future back story episode where Gemma is talking to the doctor character speculating about "what if you forget all the painful moments of your life?" before she is eventually abducted (or maybe she willingly chose to be severed at first?)
Then there's the whole, who is outtie Irving talking to? I speculate it's the Whole Mind Collective. I think we might see outtie Irving and outtie Burt again at some point, but have no idea what they'll be up to next.
Dylan had a satisfying end to this season, albeit kind of a repeat ending of last season. I'm pretty sure next season is going to be a search for meaning for him without his wife, without his work, and without anymore perks for them to lord over him.
I still don't know what the fuck James Eagan is doing though. I could have sworn they were trying to resurrect Kier, or give James a new body using Cold Harbor somehow, but there's so many questions as to why he's so interested in witnessing whether Gemma is so thoroughly a blank slate inside that room. Like, why? Why does James need her to be a blank slate with no memories? Is he trying to erase past sins like Burt? Are you developing an Endless Sunshine of the Spotless Mind kind of technology to sell to the masses? For the love of God, Ben Stiller, just tell me!! Lol.
And then we get to the climax, where Mark S decides to simply stay with Helly R. (or Helly E. As she indicates to Milchick in last episode). They built up to this beautifully. The conversation/confrontation between Mark Scout and Mark S. at the beginning was brilliantly written and I love how they portrayed it. It perfectly encapsulates the relationship the outties have with their innies. We've been rooting for Mark Scout finding and saving his wife this entire season, but the argument Mark S. makes is very compelling and in all honesty I don't blame Mark S. for sort of cutting it both ways at the end there. He saves his outtie's wife, but takes his outtie's time/life in exchange.
It's such a beautiful turn of events where Mark S. turns the tables on the outties and in a way says, "Y'know, you guys on the outside get to call all the shots and say what's important...but for once in my life I'm going to call the shots, I'm going to say what's important, and now, you all have to wait on us on the inside."
Its an interesting plot twist. And yeah, I've already seen the conversations elsewhere saying "But where will they go? This is such teenage romance schtick." Its a valid criticism, but I honestly think it's beautiful. From a practical standpoint though, yeah, the innie's are kind of in between a rock and a hard place. I like the theory that the innies will refuse to leave the building until more demands are met. Perhaps Mark S. will demand Helena never be allowed to exist again and Helly will be given complete control over her body...in exchange for him returning to be Mark Scout forever. Only for the reintegration to kick in fully once he finally leaves.
I theorize that Gemma will immediately go to the authorities and we'll see a sociopolitical drama unfold where Lumon tries to once again put out a PR Marketing dumpster fire. Or she'll be sent in to get Mark S. to compromise somehow so she can get her husband back.
Its an amazing show, but damn do I hate how it's become a more modern day Lost. I'm a selfish little plot pig and just want my questions answered now, oink oink, lol.
Anyway, nerd rant over.
Was that Helly or Helena on the severed floor with mark?
I hope not, it would be repetitive if they kept doing that, and would get old if they reused that twist. Kinda like the "who's actually a Cylon" from Battlestar Galactica after the second or third reveal.
Probably Helly. Sounds like her dad sees more potential in her than Helena.
I agree, I never sensed Helena this episode. My hackles were raised earlier in the season, but I didn't detect any thing this time. I don't think Helena would have made the same choices Helly just did.
So it's discussed in the "after the episode" featurette but I want to highlight the beauty of the four part/four person Mark/Gemma transition scenes.
First we have Mark Scout finally find his wife, but she's an innie. It's tragic that Mark finally finds her, but she isn't her.
Then we get the true reunion. Mark Scout finally finds his wife Gemma. It's what he's been looking for the entire series. But it's tragic that w don't have time to explain or discuss anything.
Then we get two strangers. Mark S and Ms Casey. Sure they're familiar with each other, but they don't really know each other. It's a reminder of how tragic things were in season one, so close and yet so far.
And finally we get the reverse. Mark S and Gemma. Mark S dud his duty and saved Mark Scout's wife. But that isn't his wife. Tragically he can't save the one he loves. Best he can do is run away with Helly, but they have nowhere to actually run.
I just finished the episode, and I donβt know if Iβm ready to talk about it yet. But goat lady might be my new favorite character.
Brienne of Tarth never disappoints
I was praying for her to save Mark S - and as soon as she did, I said, "now SHE can handle herself in this fight!" And I'll be damned if she didn't do exactly that. So glad Gwendoline got another major fight scene here. That RULED.
