this post was submitted on 15 Apr 2025
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Flippanarchy

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Flippant Anarchism. A lighter take on social criticism with the aim of agitation.

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[–] kibiz0r@midwest.social 29 points 1 week ago (8 children)

So without capitalism, AI would not be obfuscating the sources of ideas, mischaracterizing the content of works, polluting communication channels with vapid slop, enticing emotionally-vulnerable people to self-destructive behavior, accelerating disinformation, enabling scams, profiling thought-crime, producing nonconsensual pornography…?

There’s no denying that capitalism is steering AI (and everything) in a dark direction, but AI is also just hazardous by its very nature. Moving beyond capitalism won’t automatically make humans more careful than we’ve ever been.

[–] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 15 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (19 children)

AI would not be obfuscating the sources of ideas

Who would care? Why would it be important?

mischaracterizing the content of works

Huh?

polluting communication channels with vapid slop

That can already be dealt with moderation tools. If you don't like GenAI slop, just ban the people doing it.

enticing emotionally-vulnerable people to self-destructive behavior,

If people do this (big "if" here), then the cause is again in Capitalism (alienation) giving an incentive to do so.

accelerating disinformation

Root cause: capitalism

enabling scams,

Capitalism

profiling thought-crime

Huh?

producing nonconsensual pornography…?

We were doing that since photoshop.

Just because you can spam a bunch of scary concepts, doesn't mean they stand up well

[–] Mortoc@lemmy.world 17 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Another thing about AI slop is that it’s usually motivated by some sort of get rich quick thinking or plain old labor replacement. Both motivations disappear without capitalism.

[–] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

Well, for myself, I just like generating pretty images for myself and my blogposts and to speed up my coding.

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[–] nature_man@lemmy.blahaj.zone 12 points 1 week ago (2 children)

No actually. I have multiple concerns with "AI" that would continue to be concerns in a completely non-capitalism based system.

It would take several hours to type out some of them, but some that are very simple are: the resources required to have these "AI" systems are extensive and would be better used elsewhere, there are things that should not be copied (especially without consent of the creator) and used in a LLM or any image generator, and these systems only exist because of capitalism, without being able to extract and steal value from others, there is really no use for them

[–] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 16 points 1 week ago (1 children)

You can run inference on desktop gpus. Copyrights are a state enforced monopoly, not a law of nature. I don't recognise any control of culture by anyone, including the author. The technology can just as well exist outside of Capitalism

[–] within_epsilon@beehaw.org -2 points 1 week ago (2 children)

I write software collectively. Sometimes code needs to be fixed. Let's say Fred wrote some code that needs to be fixed. I fix it and create a merge request. My reviewer, Mark, looks over my merge request and allows it into the collective repository. Fred, being too attached to her code, comes over yelling. Fred has not learned that software is a collective experience.

We collectively own the technology and creative works. Under capitalism, we must individually own that work to make money.

[–] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 1 week ago

Cool story bro?

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[–] Jomega@lemmy.world 6 points 1 week ago (2 children)

That's your solution for everything.

[–] DebatableRaccoon@lemmy.ca 18 points 1 week ago (3 children)

A good solution fixes multiple problems, young grasshopper.

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[–] disguy_ovahea@lemmy.world 3 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Take it from the Godfather of AI, Geoffrey Hinton, a computer scientist, cognitive scientist, cognitive psychologist, and Nobel laureate in physics.

https://files.catbox.moe/yr8vt3.mov

[–] CaptnNMorgan@lemmy.world 4 points 1 week ago (2 children)

I don't like that you linked to a direct download, but I love the cause

[–] disguy_ovahea@lemmy.world 2 points 1 week ago (15 children)

That’s odd. It opens in a new browser tab for me. That’s the only way I’ve used catbox. Is there a better way to host it so that doesn’t happen?

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it is just a direct link to a file, if your browser / application defaults to downloading mov h264 videos that's it's quirk.

[–] Commiunism@beehaw.org -4 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

We're definitely not getting out of Capitalism, especially when:

  • The loudest anti-capitalists don't even know what capitalism is exactly (why read and study it when you can go for vibe based approach) or are outright pro-capitalist but instead pushing for a more "humane" version of it and sometimes fighting actual anti-capitalists.

  • Most people are content with accepting the worldview they were born into (the liberal/Capitalist one) instead of actually attempting to examine reality for what it truly is, seek answers and do a double take on who they should be supporting, especially nowadays.

[–] Ilixtze@lemm.ee -5 points 1 week ago (2 children)

You all keep saying that but i don't see capitalism being overturned any time soon.

Also art made by a computer just sounds like shit.

[–] drkt_@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (6 children)

art made by a computer just sounds like shit.

This is a common but reductive statement and I'm tired of hearing it. People have been drawing crude boobs on rocks since the first man picked up a stick but I don't hear you complaining about childrens drawing. 'AI', especially the current iteration of it, is being used for all kinds of shit that would've taken conventional computing a million real-hours to do. There is no reason that real artists can't or shouldn't incorporate AI into their workflow in any capacaity if it helps them realize the idea they have. Denoising is a simple use case that you've used if you ever took a photo on your phone but, again, I don't hear you bitching about that one.

The only thing you could possibly be upset about is that the barrier of entry to making passable art with no thought put into it has been lowered so much that a child can do it. That's a problem of you looking in places that allow that to be posted, though. You could just not. I, for example, don't care for stable diffusion spam; I don't see a lot of it because I don't go where that kind of art is.

I'm sorry if this comes off as rude but I'm really tired of hearing uh buh AI art bad with no expansion or introspection.

[–] libra00@lemmy.world 9 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (3 children)

There are a few reasons not to use AI, without even getting into the philosophical considerations like whether a generative model can have the intentionality necessary to turn its images into art.

  1. Current models are utterly dependent on using others' work without permission or compensation, and in fact the people behind AI companies are now advocating for the abolishing of IP law so they can exploit artists even more. I'm sure that will definitely apply to their products too.
  2. For all our concern about the energy and environmental cost of crypto mining no one seems to have noticed that AI is using the same hardware at the same rates as mining bitcoin, and for the same reason: to make rich people even richer.
  3. As with every other product of the large tech companies it will be free and easily accessible now but will not fail to succumb to the same enshittification that has driven us from facebook, reddit, etc.
[–] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 1 week ago (2 children)

As with every other product of the large tech companies it will be free and easily accessible now but will not fail to succumb to the same enshittification that has driven us from facebook, reddit, etc.

This is why I built the AI Horde

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[–] Jakeroxs@sh.itjust.works -1 points 1 week ago (4 children)
  1. humans do the same thing, we constantly intake others output and our output is absolutely going to be based on what we have experienced to some extent, the important part is if it is transformational right? (in regards to IP/copyright laws and such)

  2. With crypto at least there was an argument to be made for comparing the electrical requirements for all alternative banking solutions as a comparison, which I never once saw. For AI it depends entirely on the generation mechanism, not to mention you can self host locally and ensure the type of energy in use.

  3. self host... Again

[–] drkt_@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 1 week ago (4 children)

I accidentally deleted my comment sorry here it is again

Current models are utterly dependent on using others’ work without permission or compensation,

They are not dependent on it, no. They simply do that because it’s the cheapest way to build a huge dataset to train on.

the people behind AI companies are now advocating for the abolishing of IP law so they can exploit artists even more

I advocate for the total abolishment of copyright, IP and any adjacent laws for the exact opposite reason; artists would not need copyright and innovators would not need IP to protect themselves if we lived in a society that nurtured a healthier culture of sharing. In its most extreme form, I want to get rid of money such that nobody, artists especially, need not money to justify their continued existence. Human beings were not meant to be enslaved to a monetary structure and it has become the driving force of misery all around the world.

will not fail to succumb to the same enshittification

It’s pretty clear to me that you haven’t participated in the open source AI race because we don’t need the corporate AIs. I don’t say that like a ‘lmao ur not as smart as me’ but open source AI development, especially stable diffusion and chat LLMs, has caught up to corporate AIs in every way but training data, because unlike the corporations, they walk a thin legal line. I’ve been following it closely since GPT2. It was open source that first came up with the idea of using smaller models to do specific things instead of trying to train one huge model to do everything.

[–] Jakeroxs@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Replying to wrong comment :p

I did see this reply already in the thread though.

[–] drkt_@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 1 week ago

o fuq whatever I'm just gonna leave it lmao

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[–] Ilixtze@lemm.ee 3 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (4 children)

Arts have some of the lowest barriers of entry imaginable. Anyone can pick up a pencil and do "art"

Your comment tells me you are not interested in art. you are interested in finished products. Your idea of Generative tools giving children a voice is grotesque. Any child can grab a pencil and make a drawing. It is easier than ever for a child to learn visual art as a language or writing as a voice or music as a passion.

But you prefer your child to write a prompt in a vending machine thus negating any humanity that your child could bring to the world of art. The children of the next generations could be holding the next Shakespeare or the next Miyazaki or the next Steven Spielberg. The children that hobble themselves with machine induced Dunning-krueger have been stolen of that opportunity.

A world without capitalism, would not be obsessed with monetizing everything and the lowering deadlines to mass produce garbage. I imagine there would be time for slowness, and introspection. To make less more meaningful art. To propose alternative aesthetics. To judge art as a human act. You are telling me that a free society will choose creativity as automated corporate sponsored vending machines? Well talk about a lack introspection.

There are so many living Artists out there and I love to see hear and read their aesthetic obsessions. I love the musician that mastered the violin as much as I love the urban noise artist that rubs his balls to a contact microphone. I love the novelist that took care to research for his novel by moving and living to the little town they are writing about as much as I love The crude horror short story writer that wanted to exorcise a visceral feeling by adding automatic writing to their new story. I love Tarkovsky and Neil Breen. I love The Russian Arc and saving Captain Alex, especially when watched together in a 2 movie marathon. There was a wide array of outside art that incorporated people with diverse abilities. People who paint without limbs, people whose styles are wildly different from the mainstream. The disabled and incarcerated. You won't see this art being sold in capitalism because neoliberal capitalism is inherently ableist. so instead capitalist logic suggests that they should wear someone else's mask. Thus erasing their voices.

A love for art means that you can love and respect what someone else makes. It acknowledges that we are different, that our voices are different and that there are a myriad of forms of communication. Capitalist logic wants to make things uniform and standardized, centralized and dependent of large platforms. Current AI products follow this logic and being critical of it is as valid as criticizing the logic of every good and service that has been coopted and perverted by capitalism

It is hilarious watching people yearn for a communist utopia while trying to silence critics of current production methods. I feel it is only a rhetoric strategy adopted by AI apologists.

My issue with AI in creative fields is that the people that use it seem to hold a contempt towards art as a language. To them creative media that doesn't follow a certain specification doesn't exist and holds no value. So they want to jump immediately to the production line notion of a finished product. They don't believe in the human action of creating a personal language or aesthetic by exploring the limits of language. Language is bypassed by the vending machine. you mix and match a few reductive options and you get your product. AI vending machines are very depending on this mechanistic labeling of art as well. millions of works ranked and scaled through a centralized reductive criteria.

Yes I think it is the AI defenders who are usually reductive in comments.

They reduce the logic of artistic production to capitalist logic: Hence AI art is better because it is "faster" to make and because it looks to a standard or specification to be sold.

They reduce living artists to materials for these vending machines. Always denigrating their work while at the meantime always hungry for the new lora or the virgin territory in training data. Artists are both valuable in bulk but dehumanized, imitated and anonymized.

They don't believe in human voice or their own voices even. They have infinite hopes for the AI. A big chunk of AI defenders are doomers in a way. Their idea of progress is turning themselves into machines instead of making the system more humane. They always talk about efficiency and judge everything in value scales. Mathematical thinking has no place in art. Especially art made beyond capitalism. The beauty of art is that it transcends value. That it connects us to people with different viewpoints. It expands cultural horizons and subjectivity. Art is useless in the best sense of the word. It is potential beauty looking for a beholder. But that is also a trait that Ai defenders seem eager to bypass. Because art made by centralized models has the tendency to IMPOSE values and solidify subjectivity.

In this respect the generative products we have are a self defeating practice for it's enthusiasts because it also has the potential to anonymize those who use it. I feel that is the end goal of the consolidation of generative AI models. This is the reason why CEO's are so obsessed with alignment, censorship and control. It's not "Skynet as a threat" but rather "Who gets to be Skynet?" Who floods the media with dribble? What AI model creates and sings and speaks for everyone? It's part of the pitch for large investors.

You could have picked up a pencil a music instrument or a quill, but you choose someone else's hype cycle. And I feel sorry for the voice we lost.

[–] drkt_@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I'm happy you took a writing class but why do I have to be your exam topic?

you are not interested in art. you are interested in finished products.

I'll be honest and say I debated even reading the rest of your comment because right off the bat you've just said some bullshit that anyone who even looks at my posts would know is false. I am literally a technical photographer, an artist. I use AI to the extend that it's useful to me which is exactly not at all.

However, in the spirit of good faith, I did read it and I must say I feel like you're shadowboxing someone who isn't me.

But you prefer your child to write a prompt in a vending machine thus negating any humanity that your child could bring to the world of art.

I did not say this. I don't know why you're putting it here.

A world without capitalism, would not be obsessed with monetizing everything and the lowering deadlines to mass produce garbage. I imagine there would be time for slowness, and introspection. To make less more meaningful art. To propose alternative aesthetics. To judge art as a human act.

This is what I said and where the misunderstanding seems to begin, because:

You are telling me that a free society will choose creativity as automated corporate sponsored vending machines? Well talk about a lack introspection.

is the exact opposite of what I said. In a world where artists are not forced to participate in the social status rat race, they can pursue their arts however they want and it will mostly not include AI. AI grifters won't exist because there's no grift to be done, as artists are not pressured into charging money for their works nobody will care about churning out art, and low-effort generative AI will be shoved aside as easily as we shove other low-effort artistic adventures aside.

I think you're trying to argue with me as if I'm pro-AI and have made the usual pro-AI arguments when I am not and have not. AI in all of its iterations are to me what algorithms of the bygone era are: tools. You can use a hammer to crudely slam nails into a 2x4 but you're not an artist until you build something more than the sum of its parts, whatever tools you use. I don't use AI. I don't pay for any AI services. I've followed the development of LLMs, stable diffusion, and adjacent technology. I have experimented with it and found it to not be useful in my usual workflow and I don't see what else I could do with it that hasn't been done a million times over. I don't hate the hammer because it's not immediately useful to me, I just don't use it and won't be upset if someone else does. If someone else makes something beautiful with the hammer then I will appreciate it as I do art made with any other tools.

The rest of your essay is more like a generic rant aimed at nobody in particular so I won't dissect it. The above point applies.

[–] Ilixtze@lemm.ee 1 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

I didn't take a writing class this is just normal person writing. What a strange comment.

"I am literally a technical photographer, an artist. I use AI to the extend that it’s useful to me which is exactly not at all."

It is cool that you are a technical photographer; But that does not make you interested in participating in an art community. You can make photography and disregard other type of artists. Scabs see themselves as workers you see. Or at least they like to mascarade as "hello fellow workers". Even if you are a commited artist working in the art industry, denying your fellow artists the validity of their criticisms show a sever lack of empathy. Especially because later you stated:

"the exact opposite of what I said. In a world where artists are not forced to participate in the social status rat race, they can pursue their arts however they want and it will mostly not include AI. AI grifters won’t exist because there’s no grift to be done, as artists are not pressured into charging money for their works nobody will care about churning out art, and low-effort generative AI will be shoved aside as easily as we shove other low-effort artistic adventures aside."

But then you are doing this strange double speak: "Oh I agree with you I am an artist as well" "AI will be shoved aside as easily as we shove other low-effort artistic adventures aside." So then if we agree on this, what is the point of defending generative AI against criticism? It sounds like criticism towards AI is part of the efforts to criticize the capitalistic logic that would be a utopia to overthrow.

If you really don't use generative AI; then it is criticism that makes you uncomfortable? Why? Why need to defend something you don't use? It's because your fortune cookie meme makes you feel smarter than others?

I repeat the part you didn't read from a small comment you call "essay": Ai criticism is valid and necessary because the tools we have now follow capitalistic logic. So a critique of capitalism will include a critique of these tools.

We can argue all you want about hypothetical utopian societies; But the core of this particular argument is that I find it devious to coopt anti capitalist language to deflect criticism from the capitalistic machinery we have now.

[–] drkt_@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 1 week ago (1 children)

what is the point of defending generative AI against criticism

because the criticism is nearly always just "I don't like it"; see the original comment.
You're either deeply confused about what I said or you're deliberately engaging in dishonest discourse by picking and choosing whatever strawman you can argue with and applying that to me as if I said that when I didn't.

You can make photography and disregard other type of artists. Scabs see themselves as workers you see. Or at least they like to mascarade as “hello fellow workers”.

I reject the implication that I am a scab and will not engage further as I think you have insulted me and cannot reply in good faith. Good day.

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[–] Val@lemm.ee -5 points 1 week ago (1 children)

GenAI does have a place in art. Computer generated art gives people a chance to express themselves in a way they otherwise never could. Some people lack the ability to imagine shapes in their minds. This would obviously hamper their ability to draw but with a Image generator they could just write something and have the computer imagine it for them. They then could take a part of that image and add something to it, generate something else that fit with it. This is art. A human using a tool to create something, something that would not have been created otherwise. Or "AI gives a voice to those that don't have time, dedication or ability to learn a medium"

A practical example. The primary form of art I interact with is music and so when I hear this: https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=RYJAUfCkIaQ I think "Wow this is good", and it wouldn't have existed without AI.

But there is always a place for human created art and as long we have enough computing power to use AI there will be a place for AI Art. They are both important because they are both different.

[–] Ilixtze@lemm.ee 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (3 children)

Having a computer "imagine" for them is already hampering their expression. Again you are forcing your capitalist logic to someone else. I have Aphantasia. I cannot formulate images in my head and I cannot remember faces. I think exclusively in verbal or written concepts. I studied drawing in college and I developed a method where I would lay down masses of value on paper with charcoal and the cut them down with an eraser and formulate a concept from that. My approach to drawing is explorative, I would have never developed this system if I hampered my artistic exploration by letting a machine imagine for me. I know artists that have Daltonism and they developed an unusual way to represent color because of that.

The crutch of generative AI erases the expressive potential of outsider art because it's capitalist logic dictates that "good" is a specific standard imposed by the ethos of tech industry shareholders. It is an insult for someone to tell me that I can't make art, that I need a generative crutch. It is an insult that someone might dare to take away my voice because it is not a standardized product!

Also I am not gonna tough the music, nope, I'm opening my Spotify playlist right now.

Finally the point is not if there is a place for human art. Ai generated dribble is not art because it bypasses the visceral search for human connection through the development of language; AI generative models under capitalist logic, flatten standardize and patronize human communication. There might be other more useful ways to use that technology , even for creative purposes. But at the moment it is valid and necessary to criticize and denounce the tools we have as a reflection of the neoliberal logic that created them.

All this to say maybe it's time to stop coopting Anti Capitalist rhetoric to defend a system that feeds off capitalist logic.

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[–] galanthus@lemmy.world 3 points 1 week ago (2 children)

There is no such thing as AI art.

[–] desktop_user@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 1 week ago (1 children)

so you are saying there are only some mediums that can be art?

[–] galanthus@lemmy.world 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

No, I am not. AI art is "art" made by AI, and I would say nothing more. The point of it is to minimise the necessity for humans to make creative decisions, but that is what art is, essentially, so I can hardly call it art.

There is no medium that tries to eliminate itself as a medium like AI. Whatever medium you pick, it is accepted that it will be reflected in the finished product, that is the point of a medium. But AI "works" only have a distinct look by accident, as AI is a program that imitates already existing things, insofar as the product is distinct from actual art, it fails, so the idea of AI as a medium is paradoxical.

For that reason, I believe it ultimately to be a waste of time. If your end goal is to make something indistinguishable from what already exists, you will only produce an inferior version.

But to answer your question, no, AI can be used as a medium for art, but only in a meta sense in which both it, and what it produces, are part of the picture. Otherwise, I would say, AI art is not art.

[–] drkt_@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Thank you for the your incredible insight and immense contribution to the discussion.

[–] galanthus@lemmy.world -1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I did provide some insight, by responding to someone that replied to my comment. Feel free to read it.

[–] drkt_@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I read it. Why didn't you say that to begin with? We can't infer what you mean when all you present is a simple, generic statement. Your follow-up is much more clarifying.

[–] galanthus@lemmy.world 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I usually do elaborate on my points, but you said you were tired of reductive statements, so I thought it would be funny if I made one.

[–] drkt_@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 1 week ago

That's actually funny, it just went over my head

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[–] agent_nycto@lemmy.world -5 points 1 week ago

Fuckin AI bros trying to co-opt socialism to try to justify how much they love the new corporate tool.

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