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Originally r/DataisBeautiful
(Don’t take this map too seriously, I found it on another social media, not an academic paper).
"If we tax the rich, they just move to another country!1!!1!"
Yea, we will tax them there too. And take half of your hoard when they move. You stole long enough from us...
Let's all sign international tax agreement so the rich can't flee, and if they do : requisition by the workers. Seems fair to me.
Who cares if they flee. The people shall then take control of their assets they leave behind!
The real estate, factories, etc they leave behind. Leave it to the people!
Mhmm if you runaway from paying your share then everything you own in our country is no longer yours. When you try to come back later your ass is going court, sucks to suck.
This is a beginning https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/OECD/G20_Inclusive_Framework
And of course Trump is using bullying as a means to keep his rich friends/circlejerk rich.
I still don't understand why the EU didn't just buckshot the shit out of it, but just keeps saying "we might do it back".
I hate that argument.
"People who are taking more than they give will leave if we ask them to pay their fair share!"
Fucking grand, get out. Or better yet, pay up. Best case, pay and leave.
The rich are rich because they own real physical assets, like the supermarkets, utilities, factories, etc. It is very difficult for them to move these assets with them overseas.
A really good example of this is Roman Abramovich, a Russian oligarch who owned the Chelsea FC. The UK government sanctioned and froze Abramovich's assets due to the Russia-Ukraine war, and Abramovich was forced to give away Chelsea FC.
Wait, you mean the people that use our resources and don't pay taxes would go away?
Man, that sounds so awful.... What would we do without them.....
As you have no uncovered their main excuse: We are forced to close those jobs and move them over to China/India/anywhere else because we can't maintain the current prices and taxes.
Shoutout Norway.
Tax the rich more and put in place a general wealth cap. You can’t have more than say $100,000,000 and that is already a ridiculous sum for anyone person to have. If you are found to be over the limit then anything you own here can be taken to get you under the limit. Land and property can be taken, stocks can be taken, cash directly can be taken.
Also introduce a ban on private jets and yachts, you absolutely need to fly somewhere for a meeting? Join us plebeians on normal flights then, otherwise learn to use zoom and other such tools. A ban on yachts doesn’t mean a ban on all boats, normal smaller boats are fine, cruise ships, cargo ships and tankers are as fine as ever. Just means none of your luxurious mega yachts for you and your rich buddies anymore. Again join us plebeians at the bottom for a change so you understand what it’s like.
If you have $1 billion, you win capitalism. You get a trophy and all your money is taken away so you can start the game over again on a harder difficulty.
New Capitalism+
The people of Russia, Turkey, and Germany can tell they’ve been swindled by the Oligarchs for far too long!
And spain, don't forget spain.
Yes. And many of them, especially Catalans (wink), have some decent firsthand experience on what the people taking control of the means of production looks like.
That’s still a lot of delusional temporarily embarrassed millionaires…
Now find a map of wealth inequality and see how well they correlate.
I think Slovakia has the lowest wealth inequality in europe (measured by GINI index) atleast it did in 2020. And 63% here say they want to tax the rich more.
What’s going in Estonia?
High on tech bro neoliberalism. Literally.
Probably progress being made such that people are fine with the status quo
Bad memories from Soviet times and high economic growth.
Assuming it's true, I love that countries like Norway, Finland, and Baltic states have responses closer to 50%, implying better democratic representation of taxation policies. I see this as less of "wealth inequality" and more of "political inequality".
In Denmark we have something called top tax where everyone over a certain income level are taxed a little over 50% of their income.
Unless, of course, you are a mega-rich corporation, then you pay 4% tax or less because you have the power to take your business elsewhere if you get offended and your 4% tax or less still contributes a pretty significant amount to our country, so no one dares to put pressure on you to contribute what you owe to society. 🫠
So it isn't exactly perfect. Those who are rich enough get to do whatever they want even in a system that is otherwise built to support the collective.
It sometimes pisses me off to know how easily most of our issues could be solved if companies like Mærsk and Novo Nordisk paid one or two percent more in taxes. Not even close to what they actually owe, but just one or two percent more. It could be a fucking game changer for our healthcare and educational system.
I feel like the percentages should be higher in Denmark, but I don't think people think about corporations getting to cheat the system when they are asked this question. They think about the well off civilians among us who already pay over half of their income in taxes and they will probably feel like it would be unfair to have to pay even more. At that point the thought would go to: why the fuck did I even get this degree, took on this responsibility and worked these hours if at the end of the day I have the same money after tax as a school teacher?
I can't speak for all the other Nordic countries, though I suspect similar constellations there.
@Nangijala hard agree. Same in Holland, low corporate taxes, it's the Delaware of Europe. Royal Dutch Shell paying 1% more could probably get everyone free education, no more study loans etc. Another 1% could give them all free and 100% funded basic health care insurance, no more "private contributions".
Re: Denmark and Maersk etc, the deal is usually "look we don't want to pay more than 4%, otherwise we'll move to Poland and we'll take all the jobs with us", and the Danish govt gives in. BUT - Maersk is huge, billions of dollars. Lots of boats, lots of workers. But here's the question - how many Danes work for Maersk? The vast majority are sailors from Russia, Phillipines, China, India, etc. ? Would anything change for them if Maersk would exit to say Warsaw, and pay their 4% tax there? No. How many Danes? Only a small percentage of Maersk staff. So why not say to Maersk: look, 30% tax like everyone else or just go fuck off. Take the risk. It's a lot smaller than you think.
I mean if I was in charge of government, I would probably be willing to take the gamble, but alas, I'm not and Mærsk and Novo Nordisk both use some of their money on "charity" work in Denmark where they set up funds that support the industry or they pay to build stuff like The Black Diamond which was Mærsk's present to Denmark. Many think it's super duper gracious of them and through my job, I have also benefitted from the Novo Nordisk fond. But others think that it shouldn't be like this. They should pay their taxes and let it be up to the government what the money is spent on instead of doing this charity shit where they more or less pay for initiatives that benefits their own interests. In an ideal world, the latter would be how things were, but again, what can you do? If they decided to pull out of Denmark as punishment, those funds would probably disappear too. To me, it's mafia behavior but I have been called out before for uttering such words about our gracious Mærsk xD especially back in the 2000s where the wider opinion was that we should be grateful and not greedy for them paying anything at all to the state. At least that was the opinion in the area where I lived at the time.
I was also being way too generous toward Mærsk. If I remember correctly, Mærsk pays somewhere around 2% tax. Apparently they paid 3,7% tax in 2022 and were praised for it haha. I don't remember what Novo Nordisk pays in taxes, but my guess is they pay more than Mærsk but less than the lowest tax percent for poor people here.
Basically the same in Sweden. I think the reason %-turnout is a bit higher here is because of some very beneficial tax structures on existing wealth for private individuals. Capital gains is normally taxed at 30% of the earnings but you can opt to place (parts of) your portfolio in special accounts (”Investeringssparkonto” and ”Kapitalförsäkring” for example) where the tax is below 1% of that entire account’s value. Makes it possible to get much more out of certain investments.
One argument might then be that if you have enough capital to invest from the beginning, you’ll be at an advantage compared to those that don’t. And wealth gaps might become larger as a result
To me the issue is caused by how we determine how much tax is paid.
If you're wealthy, you can structure your income in such a way that you are not earning any and therefore don't need to pay tax on that "non-existent" income.
It's also how the multinational companies structure their finances to make little or no profit except in the lowest taxing country around where "all" their "profits" are taxed.
In other words, we need to restructure the tax system globally to measure income and profit differently instead.
With the current crop of Neanderthals in charge, it's unlikely to happen in our lifetime unless something drastically changes. I'm not holding my breath.
The "use assets as collateral to get a loan, and loans aren't taxed as income" thing needs to be patched out. There are probably many other exploits but that one seems like an easier fix.
add me to the list but I am on another continent.
What a fucked up democratic system(s) where such an overwhelming public support doesn't get shit done immediately.
Well, as it turns out, it's "not the worst", but that is no consolation.
"But then the rich/companies will move to another country!" Better have them pay not enough taxes here (and exarcebate the problem) than not having them pay taxes i guess.
That is the corporate-sponsored talking point.
No companies can survive without folk & all of them would move out if they get the chance.
This is why representative democracy is flawed. Nobody holds the elected officials accountable if they don't handle according to the population's opinion. I wish more countries included some direct democracy measures, too.
Second Russian Revolution when?
What we need is an actual playbook that gives a step-by-step guide towards taxing the rich. Contrary to what many people believe, it's actually a bit tricky to avoid loopholes and other problems.
It makes sense to discuss these measures in detail, before they are implemented; in other words: now.