this post was submitted on 29 Jul 2025
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[–] uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (1 children)

To date there is zero evidence for interaction between material nature and the spirit. And not for want of looking, as scientists and clergymen alike have been searching for centuries now, anomalous exceptions are extremely rare. Even the standard model of particle physics is transparent to any spiritual factor.

So why should we look at it? Because the human mind, to perceive and process sensory stimulus into situation awareness, to remember, to read and speak and understand facial expression, to compute, and to engage in reason — for all these capacities — it requires power.

While LLM generative systems power demand is calling for the re-commissioning of nuclear power plants, the human brain eats up (according to anatomists) about 20% of our caloric intake, when we are awake, at rest. Less when we're at full run, more when we're computing the integral of the acceleration of rocket thrust as fuel is spent, or landing an airliner by yoke.

But it means, if we have a soul, and that soul remembers its sins, can reason why such behaviors were sinful; if that soul can feel the fires of Hell, this processing takes energy, and an energy source. That means interaction between the physical and spirit, which means there should be something to detect. There should even be side channels.

No evidence of energy exchange, no side channel heat or sound, it strongly (not absolutely) implies there's no spirit to detect. Or if there is, it might be so delicate that interference from natural phenomena (lightning strikes and CME emps come to mind) would shatter it.

The exception is the simulated-universe hypothesis: If the universe is a simulation in a computer program (or Azathoth's dream; Ia! 🦑🌊🌌) then all our recorded observations are of simulated events, and souls can simply be simulated. But some of us object to the notion we're an object in a program or a figment in a dream.

If there's no detectable energy powering our souls, then they could be in the core of the sun and not feel a thing, nor have an eff to give. No regrets, no memories, no pain, no misery.

Most likely, by far, we are thinking meat.

Heck I who am awake today can be a different iteration than me, who was awake yesterday. The separation of time when cerebral cortex activity is shut down for maintenance (non REM sleep) may indicate separate beings, like an AGI powered down and rebooted, with its past memories front-loaded. We're the same for day-to-day quotidian purposes, but our breaks in continuity raise philosophical questions.

And all this is before we get into the incomprehensible vastness of our galaxy, in which earth is barely a mote, or the universe featuring immense strings of galaxies, in which our Milky Way is a dot.

And all this is before we discuss the multiple great filters that are imminent before us, and as a species we are ill prepared to navigate. When we go extinct in the next century or too, it will be part of the Holicene dying, and none of our gods, myths and cultures will survive. All of our operas and symphonies, all of our paintings and sculpture, all of our cinematic thrillers and cozy mysteries and Ghibli animations and fine cuisine will evaporate into geographical layers, and the universe won't even notice.

All this is to say, I've thought about this and confronted my personal insignificance. I've come to terms with mortality and the end of society and species. I get why people cling to notions that we are something special, even though all indications from nature imply we are not.

I say, bring it.

[–] lime@feddit.nu 2 points 4 days ago (1 children)

lukewarm take at best, and i'm superficially on the same side here.

the notion that a potential soul takes energy from a person is completely unqualified, and used as a basis for the rest of the argument. there are so many external energy sources in the universe even before we start talking about a "spiritual plane".

weak.

[–] uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

I didn't say the soul pulls energy from the person, but there has to be interaction between material and spirit (I don't need spirit to be its own manifold in this model so I didn't presume it)

If the soul doesn't interact with the material then there's no connection between the two and theyre not associated.

So we should be able to detect that interaction. It should have enough of a footprint that were able to notice something even if only side channel effects (which is how we discovered radiation and the heating properties of microwaves).

And we haven't.

As I said, it doesn't rule out spirit, but like many apologetic arguments, it takes a lot of weird presumptions to assert that spirit does exist, does interact with material, yet cannot be detected with the scientific means we have in the twenty first century. It can happen but then it requires stark changes in the models of mechanics we have (such as possibly the simulated-universe hypothesis). In this case our scopes are good enough to see the proverbial teapot. 🫖

But I appreciate that it's difficult to comprehend what the issues are, and why this is a failing not merely of Christianity but any narrative that involves spirit or afterlife. It rules out most models of ghost and fairy phenomena as well.

And don't worry. If you don't get it today, we'll have many (hypothetical, thankfully) days together in the break room so that I can assure you do.

[–] lime@feddit.nu 1 points 3 days ago (6 children)

why does there have to be interaction?

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[–] Flax_vert@feddit.uk -2 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (2 children)

I don't really see the problem? I'd assume this includes any belief system, including atheism?

The headline is a bit sensationalist. The article is just "colleagues should be allowed to debate religion"

[–] 60d@lemmy.ca 3 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Any religion that includes crosses or mezuzah, sure.

Atheism isn't big on crosses.

[–] GreenKnight23@lemmy.world 2 points 3 days ago (1 children)

sure we are. we want them burning...no wait...that's still Christian. we want them upside down and in the....still Christians.

maybe we aren't big on crosses...

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[–] Auli@lemmy.ca 1 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Atheism isn't a belief system. Or what do we call not believing in Santa Clause, the Easter bunny and tooth fairy.

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