Ask Lemmy

first off, we need to drop this false dichotomy between arbitrary words like patriotism and nationalism. it's not as simple as "good vs bad" or "moderate vs excess". you're talking about two completely different points of pride.

nationalism is pride in a shared identity between people; patriotism is pride in the state of a country. and you ask for my opinion: both are bullshit.

I like how someone referenced schopenhauer. I prefer Sartre. In "antisemite and jew" he wrote about how the bigot, by putting down another group, instantly promotes himself into a group of the chosen ones, the good guys -- all without doing anything.

that's what pride in a group identity often does. elevates yourself based on the accomplishments of others. it's a substitute for character.

HOWEVER we cannot dismiss all collective pride this way. when a group we actually belong to and contribute to actually does something good, why not be proud of it? the trouble is, the more people you involve in this collection, the less any single individual needs to actually DO to contribute.

that's why I honestly believe nationalism is less toxic than patriotism: because there can be many smaller groups (nationalism) within a country (patriotism).

the anarchist perspective is that a nation is a PEOPLE and the state is a parasite. patriotism is pride in the state, not the people. why be proud of tapeworms?

It can be a useful political tool in the imperial periphery when used correctly. In the imperial core it is a tool of oppression.

I was raised around a lot of "patriotism" (closet nationalism) and have had to adapt the feeling now that I understand better what America actually is and has been. I found that trying to abandon the feeling altogether was making me feel cynical and alone. The parts of America that I love in fact tend to exist despite our government and dominant culture, which steals and appropriates the things I love about us and turns them into the things people know about us and dislike for good reason. I love the source materials, not the end result. As a white person born into privilege on stolen land, my existence is not entirely apart from this, but all's I can do with that is try to make something better of it.

There's a salt-of-the-earth working-class segment of this country that's getting screwed over, knows how and why they and others are getting screwed over, and has learned to survive together in spite of it. People that make families out of communities. Rail hoppers, union organizers, queer punks, the list goes on. That spirit is not unique to this country but there do exist uniquely American forms of it. I'm more proud of these people than words can express, and that's about as close to patriotic as I can feel these days.

Maybe I just like seeing our shitty protestant labor worship turned to something more productive. Maybe I just spent too much time in the mountains to not fall in love with the land itself. Or maybe I just love banjos.

It ain't worth a damn to me. Maybe if your country doesn't suck lol. There truly are things about my country I love. In some ways, we're the best in the world. An American can be white, black, asian, hispanic, arab or anything else really. It's a very beautiful thing to me. I find it deeply depressing that those in power want to strip this country of what makes it great. Also having no social safety net is not acceptable obviously. There's far more I can shit on this country of mine for than I can praise it for right now. I sincearly hope that changes. I'd like to be proud to be American. I've always wanted that. Sadly, it's never been a reality for me and millions of other Americans.

I quite like regionalism that doesn't align with national borders. An example would be "limburgers" have a strong shared identity, even as parts of it lie in Belgium, and parts of it lie in the Netherlands.

Fundamentally it comes down to this question, I think: people tend to like to be around people that've shared a same background, is that ok? And to what degree?

My take is that patriotism is a corruption of the feeling of belonging we get from community.

For decades, most of my life, the streets to avoid walking down, or pubs to visit, are those that year round, hang outlarge Union Jacks (UK flag) and especially those that exhibit the St Georges flag (England flag]. To many here the St Georges flag is sadly synonymous with Right wing thugs.

It's fine. Community is natural.

The problem comes when it stops being about what you love and starts being about what you hate.

To all the people just reposting famous quotes: congrats you misunderstood the lesson: think for yourself more please

Nationalism is tribalism in the modern day, and is just as destructive and irrational

Vicarious pride in achievements one never participated in, like sports teams but a lot deadlier

It has split families, forced neighbor to kill neighbor, collapsed nations and serves no purpose in the modern world and the ones that shout it loudest are the worst dangers to world peace

Pride, no prejudice

Its crucial for a nation to have. Its good for citizens to unify around goals and achievements but to much can lead to a big head and losing the ability to accurately self reflect and self asess.

I like it in an unintelligent sentimental way.

Pride in your country/state/etc is ok, nationalism is not. The US only knows indoctrination and nationalism. Canada is a little better about it with their buy Canadian movement, imo

Das ist verboten

I don't attribute anthropomorphism to a country. Improve your environment(mental/physical/emotional), help others; systems of government can come and go.

Id rather be happy than loyal to a fault.

anthropomorphism /ăn″thrə-pə-môr′fĭz″əm/

noun

Attribution of human motivation, characteristics, or behavior to inanimate objects, animals, or natural phenomena.

The representation of the Deity, or of a polytheistic deity, under a human form, or with human attributes and affections.

The ascription of human characteristics to things not human.