It's heartbreaking to see what's happening and sickening just how many people and governments are complicit.
this post was submitted on 01 Sep 2025
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One day (the collective) we will have to explain what happened in our time and in our name to our children.
Israel plotting ethenic cleansing with usa support
Thought we wouldn't see any more war crimes on account of Tony Blair...
It's like the villain from book one coming back as a genocidal lich in book five.
Damn you Biden!!!!!
These vageposts 🙄 I assume the implication is that this would never have happened under Biden, when it literally happened under Biden. It’s a nonfalsifiable claim that has (1) no supporting evidence and (2) historical evidence that suggests otherwise.
Unless Poe’s law has struck again, in which case carry on.
rather, damn the democrats who stayed home, and damn the ones in congress who are helping republicans and trump facilitate this.
when the history books are written, they will remember liberal collaboration in this holocaust.
damn the democrats who stayed home
They said they couldn't imagine how Trump could even be any worse than Biden. Gaza was the big issue that led them to stay home. Well, now we know how. And they're still safe in their air conditioned homes right now, not starving with no dead children, probably still convinced they were striking a blow for truth and justice and feeling aggressively proud of how right they were and still are.
There was always a chance of getting worse whoever would have won
There was a guarantee that things would get horrifyingly worse if Trump won.
There was a chance of things getting worse if whatever Democrat won, and also a small chance that strong vocal protest would produce an improvement in US policy producing some improvement for the Palestinians.
With Trump, they had no chance at all.
No there was equal chance of getting worse no matter who won. Biden claimed to have redlines but everytime israel ignored them he thanked israel with more diplomatic support and more billions of your money. Harris said she will not change anything in the middle east. They didn't even allow palestinians to talk in the DNC.
As long as you american keep voting for the same two cults they will never listen to you and you will see your country collapsing.
I never see you hypocrites condemining israel terrorism always yeah but Biden . Where is Harris now? Not only about palestine but also about being vocal against trump?
All these comments and only blaming dems. The political party currently in the minority. Love it, all yalls brains are broken.
Oh spare us the dishonesty; you whining about anyone criticizing the Democrats just as hard when they were in the majority.
Learn to read idiot. I blamed both. I'm tired of dumb cultists like you who only want to hear what you want to here. You piece of trash
I never see you hypocrites condemining israel terrorism
You must not be looking real hard. At one point I was a moderator of palestine@lemm.ee, I think because one of the existing moderators watched me [ yelling at / trying to talk sense into ] someone who was talking about October 7th in a particular type of way, and generally trying to put home to them what a fucking catastrophe is going on in Gaza right now. (That was a while ago, it's gotten worse.)
I can dig up screenshots about me yelling about Palestine, if you want me to find them. Do you want me to?
No there was equal chance of getting worse no matter who won.
Get the fuck out, man. You know that's not true. Like I say, you're safe in the air conditioning, you can say stuff like that with a straight face, no one around you hasn't eaten for a week so you can use this stuff as a little crutch to make your political point.
Dems gives billions to israel , republicans gives billions to israel. Dems provide diplomatic cover to israel , republicans gives diplomatic cover to israel. Obama signed to biggest aid package to isrsel. So why would iarael ever stop? Just because republicans are more vocal about their hate of palestinians and full support for israel doesn't mean thst it wouldn't be worse no matter who won.
Trump winning because of palestine is also complete bs. Only 2% had foreign policies as top priority, it was ranked 7 of 8 issues. In those 2% yes palestine/israel was a top priority and it was fairly split between dems and republicans but we don't even know how many was siding with palestine and who was sided with the genocide. So people who voted for trump was really a small minority.
Instead of crying about trump we all need to realize teump is right now the president so he should be fought and qe should continue boycotting
While westerners was sleeping sbout the occupation for decades, we tunisians we never stopped protesting. We where protesting israel since we was teen so i don't want to hear lessons and bs for you defending one of the two genocide enablers while attacking someone who defend neither
Get the fuck out, man. You know that’s not true. Like I say, you’re safe in the air conditioning, you can say stuff like that with a straight face, no one around you hasn’t eaten for a week so you can use this stuff as a little crutch to make your political point.
That’s some sophistry. Do you also have a thought-terminating guilt trip for the Palestinian-Americans who tried to pressure the Biden/Harris administration into at least not actively supportting their relatives’ genocide?
Get the fuck out, man. You know that’s not true.
This is all you BlueMAGA fucks have left: just stubbornly insisting that everyone secretly knows you're right. Fuck off.
It's always a pivot to something else.
They said that I never talk about Palestine. I offered to show them a bunch of screenshots of me yelling about Palestine and what a fucking catastrophic horror it is. So now, they've fallen silent, and someone else has popped up, saying something different, continuing the hostile back-and-forth with different details.
I could mount an extensive factual discussion of how Trump is objectively horrifically worse even than Biden for Palestine. I actually started looking back through my comments, searching for one that I know is there that is extensively prescient talking about what types of new horrors are going to start happening in Gaza now that Trump is here, as well as some accurate details of the new horrors we have here now, in this country. Some of the people on "your side" roughly speaking were, at that time, trying to point to the cease-fire as strong evidence that Trump was better than Biden, because everything has to twist and shape itself around the narrative. I could point to that too.
But what would be the point? You would pivot to something else. That's how it works, Sartre explained it very succinctly.
I could mount an extensive factual discussion of how Trump is objectively horrifically worse even than Biden for Palestine.
No, you couldn't. Because he isn't. How would you even determine "objectively horrifically worse" when you'd be relying on counterfactuals anyway? You couldn't: you'd once again be appealing to "I'm right and obviously you're just pretending you don't think so!"
But what would be the point? You would pivot to something else.
Would I? Good to now that you've already told me what I would do it and it just happens to be the thing that lets you declare yourself right without having to justify it. Here let me try:
What would be the point? You'd just declare that you love Hitler and think bestiality should be legalized.
That’s how it works, Sartre explained it very succinctly.
Mate, you're the one loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.
No, you couldn't. Because he isn't. How would you even determine "objectively horrifically worse
Biden funded UNRWA (after Trump 1 defunded it), put sanctions on Israeli settlers, directly provided humanitarian aid, "paused" delivery of some weapons, and also provided billions of dollars in military aid and diplomatic cover (as of course did every other US president in history) which undermined any claim any of those things might have had to keeping him out of hell. On his watch, this new phase of the genocide started, and two years went by with a steady pace of dead Palestinians, mostly families and children.
Trump cancelled funding for UNRWA, unpaused all weapons shipments, and started drawing up plans with Netanyahu for the complete destruction of Gaza. It's been about six months, and the pace of the killing has greatly accelerated, mostly due to the complete starvation of the entire population. The endgame started pretty much as soon as he got into office. Domestically, he started attempting to deport people who organized protests in favor of Gaza, and de facto banned Palestinians from speaking at the UN or getting visas. Instead of weakly pumping the brakes, he hit the gas hard. The result has been a massive increase in suffering.
I'm not trying to defend Biden's support for genocide. I'm pointing out huge substantive ways in which Trump was worse, if you want that.
What do you want to pivot to now? I told you what I thought would happen in the conversation, let's see.
Biden funded UNRWA
put sanctions on Israeli settlers
Entirely performative sanctions on a handful of individual settlers does not materially help Palestinians at all.
directly provided humanitarian aid
What does this even mean, what are you referring to?
“paused” delivery of some weapons
While continuing to provide as many weapons as Israel needed. Not a single Palestinian life was saved by this entirely performative gesture.
Trump cancelled funding for UNRWA
unpaused all weapons shipments
Israel already was receiving all the weapons it needed under Biden.
and started drawing up plans with Netanyahu for the complete destruction of Gaza.
Bullshit; Netanyahu already had those plans drawn up under Biden.
the pace of the killing has greatly accelerated
Bullshit. Show your evidence or admit you're actively lying.
The endgame started pretty much as soon as he got into office
No, you just stopped ignoring how bad it was under Biden.
Instead of weakly pumping the brakes, he hit the gas hard.
What nonsense. Biden already had the gas pedal on the floor when Trump got in.
The result has been a massive increase in suffering.
Bullshit. You were just a denialist when Biden was in.
I’m not trying to defend Biden’s support for genocide.
Yes. You objectively are.
I’m pointing out huge substantive ways in which Trump was worse,
You literally have not pointed out a single way in which Trump is "hugely substantively worse". You've pointed to one thing that was straight up false, two that are completely insubstantial, and then just endlessly asserted that things are so much worse in Gaza based purely on vibes.
What do you want to pivot to now? I told you what I thought would happen in the conversation, let’s see.
Fuck off, genocide apologist
Man, when I predicted that libs will suddenly see Palestine as an issue now that Trump is in office, I didn’t fully realize that they’d use the fact that they purposefully buried their heads in the sand as proof things were better back then.
I attended some protests, and contacted my congresspeople about stopping aid for Israel back under Biden. What did you do?
The pretense that me saying "I didn't want Trump to make things ten times worse" equates to me claiming "things were okay before, and Biden wasn't complicit" doesn't become true, no matter how loud you pretend it.
No, but the fact that you're pretending Biden wasn't as bad as Trump still makes you a genocide apologist.
Biden funded UNRWA
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-56665199
I didn't know he'd stopped it in late 2024, so fair enough. Seems like more of his support for genocide, sure. Trump still made what had been a temporary shutdown permanent.
put sanctions on Israeli settlers
Entirely performative sanctions on a handful of individual settlers does not materially help Palestinians at all.
Probably true. How does refusing to vote for Democrats help Palestinians at all? If that's the metric.
directly provided humanitarian aid
What does this even mean, what are you referring to?
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/u-s-resumes-humanitarian-aid-delivery-gaza-repaired-pier/
That stuff's not really enough. Stopping the killing is what's needed, and Biden never did that. My point is that he directly provided humanitarian aid. That's citations for when he directly provided humanitarian aid.
You mentioned a couple of times that "not a single Palestinian life" was saved by various performative gestures. Sure. The humanitarian aid probably saved some Palestinian lives. Can you really not see the difference between these pitiful efforts, and what Trump is doing?
the pace of the killing has greatly accelerated
Bullshit. Show your evidence or admit you're actively lying.
Here's what Statista says:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1616501/monthly-gaza-fatalities-injuries/
That shows no real increase in the pace of dying, so according to that, I am wrong. I don't believe it. It looks like that's the Gaza Health Ministry numbers, which are limited to only specific identified people and subject to how much civil organization is still in place to track dying people. I think the pace of death by starvation, disease, and malnutrition has greatly accelerated this year. You're free to say I think that because I was giving a free pass to Biden, I guess, but I anticipate that when people look back at what happened when the flow of food into Gaza was cut off, that will be the beginning of the end. You cannot just not feed an entire population and expect them to live.
The result has been a massive increase in suffering.
Bullshit. You were just a denialist when Biden was in.
Not really.
I was and still am horrified by the genocide happening in Gaza. I was alarmed by Biden's support for it, I was in favor of things like the "uncommitted" movement trying deliberately to put pressure on him. I posted stuff about the horror happening in Gaza throughout. Like I say, I was a mod of a Palestine news community for a while.
I was also even more horrified by the idea of what Trump would do to accelerate it. That's what I kept talking about. This thing where people try to backflip their way around to where that means I'm a genocide denialist or apologist, that I don't really care about Palestinians, as a way of presenting a reality that is totally bonkers when aligned with the facts, but aligns very smoothly with the stuff in their head they're trying to back up or justify, and makes them feel better about their own actions, is totally weird to me.
Maybe there is some kind of way to analyze why people cling to looking at things that way so hard, instead of just coming to grips with the idea that Trump is bad for Palestinians and admitting that it's accurate. IDK, I am too tired to really get into it.
Why are you still trying to insist that we all agree with your unfalsifiable claim that Biden would unquestionably have been better than Trump? At this point you’re just annoying people who understand basic formal logic.
And in any case, that ship has sailed. Trump is president and Biden isn’t, and no amount of imagining alternate timelines will change that. Like, what are we even trying to accomplish here?
Maybe there is some kind of way to analyze why people cling to looking at things that way so hard, instead of just coming to grips with the idea that Trump is bad for Palestinians and admitting that it’s accurate.
What are you even talking about? No one thinks Trump is good for Palestinians.
That shows no real increase in the pace of dying, so according to that, I am wrong. I don’t believe it.
Ok, fuck off then, conversations over. You're just declaring yourself right based on the fact that you think you're right. Pure religious doctrine at this point.
I was also even more horrified by the idea of what Trump would do to accelerate it.
Which you haven't actually been able to find any examples of. That's why you get called a denialist: because you're having to pretend that Biden wasn't already at maximal support for the genocide in order to justify saying "Trump is worse!"
a way of presenting a reality that is totally bonkers when aligned with the facts, but aligns very smoothly with the stuff in their head they’re trying to back up or justify
You mean like you rejecting all evidence and just going on pure faith that Biden wasn't as bad for Gaza as Trump?
instead of just coming to grips with the idea that Trump is bad for Palestinians and admitting that it’s accurate.
Oh fuck off; you know damn well that the claim in contention wasn't "Trump is bad for Palestinians". Don't do this dishonest bullshit.
I had a feeling this wouldn't be productive lol
"If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past."
fuck off then, conversations over
This you?
(I got the feeling it wouldn't be productive a few messages ago, you didn't like that and got amped up, so fair enough, I went back in and engaged with you factually a little and went point-by-point with some citations, even openly indicating where I couldn't really find evidence of one of my points. You didn't like those responses, and declared yourself the arbiter of whether they were valid and announced that you had won the discussion. Alrighty then. Sounds like our business is concluded. Call me Mr. Anti Semite I guess.)
You didn’t like those responses, and declared yourself the arbiter of whether they were valid and announced that you had won the discussion.
What a dishonest little worm you are.
Always a fascinating little window into how the lemmy.ml community operates.
I think there are two things at work here:
- One key thing is ignoring what the other person is saying, and instead explaining what the other person's argument / belief is, to them. In this case, I can tell you that I wasn't fine with Biden's support for genocide, and you'll tell me "You were just a denialist when Biden was in.", basically justify to yourself why I think something stupid, and then argue against that imaginary thing. It's honestly one of the most unproductive ways of engaging online.
- Another key thing is the speaking from authority. You're constantly telling me whether what I am saying is valid, whether or not I've "proven" something. Of course, it never goes both ways. I could never tell you "you haven't actually been able to find any examples" right after you sent me a bunch of examples, or anything like that, because you ~~disagreed with my examples~~ declared that my examples were all invalid. The whole concept of it being two people with different points of view, who probably aren't going to walk away from the exchange with one person "proven right" and them both agreeing on that, is foreign here. I can see why you gravitate so thoroughly to governmental systems that kill their opponents and illegalize dissent.
I think #2 is why the lemmy.ml people tend to self-select themselves into such a tiny community. This place should be the flagship community of the software, but instead it is a kind of pariah community that most of the community actively avoids. Most people like being convinced of something a lot better than they like being ordered what they're allowed to believe and whether or not their current opinions are valid or not (and also assigned some new opinions if they ever disagree with the hivemind), and so they tend to exclude lemmy.ml.
IDK, man. Good luck to you guys figuring it out, I think you will have more ability to influence and communicate if you can get out of these habits.
This place should be the flagship community of the software,
Maybe it is the flagship for the software, but otherwise it really isn’t, nor do we intend for it to be. 2021: What is lemmy.ml?
Lemmy.ml has always been a niche site, and it will most likely stay this way. We don’t have any intentions to turn it into a mainstream instance, or set a goal of getting as many users as possible.
but instead it is a kind of pariah community that most of the community actively avoids.
It’s the second most active Lemmy instance after lemmy.world.
https://join-lemmy.org/instances?topic=all_topics&language=all&scroll=true
Yeah, I'm not reading that
Tony fucking Blair signed onto the plan. What makes you think Biden wouldn't?