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[–] Objection@lemmy.ml 1 points 52 minutes ago

How to best learn from AI in the game of Go.

AI is an extraordinary tool for game analysis because you can set it to analyze every move in ever game you play, and it's stronger than any human teacher. It also overturned a lot of old school opening sequences and ushered in a new meta.

But there are limitations to it. AI can tell you that a move is bad and where it should be played, but it can't explain why. AI plays on a razor's edge, if it can find one specific line of play that works to live in an area, then it won't bother trying to strengthen it, while a human player couldn't read that far ahead. Human play depends on heuristics, like, "It's generally a good idea to place your stones into this shape" but the AI doesn't think in those terms at all, it tirelessly reads out a ton of variations every time.

Once, I was in a room at an event where a professional had flown in from Asia (I forget which country) to give reviews. One of the players getting a review started arguing about something he said, saying, "I ran this through AI and it said my move was good." People have a lot of opinions on that sort of thing, some people would say that the AI is the ultimate judge of whether a move is good or not and that the student was in the right to challenge the pro saying something wrong, while others might say that student should be more respectful and consider multiple perspectives, like, "If you just want to go off AI, then why even bring it to the pro?"

Some people try to focus on playing the "top engine move," seeing that as the best practice to reach optimal play. But others feel like that makes games too "same-y," and leaves gaps in your knowledge against unconventional play, along with the problem that humans can't match it's computational power which that style of play depends on. But, everyone uses it to some degree, it's just too useful.

Also, different online servers have implemented AI tools. The most controversial is Tygem, which introduced a feature where you can pay money to use AI analysis during a game, below a certain (relatively high) rank. Pretty much everyone hates this. Like, you could just run an AI locally, but that's called "cheating" and it doesn't stop being cheating just because you decided to pay microtransactions in a 4000 year old game.

Honestly, I could go on longer than anyone's interested in talking about go controversies, like not too long ago there was a controversy between a Chinese and Korean player where the Chinese player was penalized for not keeping his captures visible, which was a new and kind of obscure rule.

[–] JillyB@beehaw.org 2 points 3 hours ago

I'm into bicycles and there are plenty. This one seems mostly settled now but "disc brakes vs rim brakes" gets some people worked up. Rim brake fans see disc brakes as needlessly expensive and complex. Disc brake fans will point out the better stopping power, especially in wet weather. And it doesn't slowly wear out your wheel rim.

Even a lot of the disc brake fans get heated at the mention of hydraulic disc brakes compared to cable-actuated. They see hydraulic brake-bleeding as the pinnacle of complexity. I used to do my own car maintenance. In that world, bleeding your brakes is considered a very beginner-friendly maintenance activity. I think cyclists are way too resistant to change.

[–] AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world 6 points 11 hours ago (2 children)

Do Balrogs have wings according to JRR Tolkein?

[–] Wolf314159@startrek.website 4 points 10 hours ago (2 children)

Okay. First off, why would a creature that lives exclusively under a mountain have wings? Second, I'm now invested in this controversy I and want to know more.

[–] stoly@lemmy.world 5 points 9 hours ago* (last edited 9 hours ago)

They didn't start under the mountain. They are, effectively, the same creatures as the wizards but corrupted. What makes the scene epic is that Gandalf was facing his match.

[–] AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world 1 points 10 hours ago (1 children)

Oh, my naive friend. This is a rabbit hole that doesn't end, one might call it a balroghole.

[–] Wolf314159@startrek.website 3 points 7 hours ago

Now I'm even more invested. And I've absolutely taken sides.

[–] yngmnwntr@lemmy.ml 2 points 10 hours ago (1 children)
[–] AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world 2 points 10 hours ago (1 children)

10 minute video? Shit that's barely scratching the surface. There are dissertations out there arguing both sides. I don't think anyone has settled the matter.

[–] Wolf314159@startrek.website 2 points 7 hours ago

What dissertations? Setting aside interpretation, were there factual errors in that video? I've read the books. I've now seen the video. The controversy seems to center mostly on a failure of reading comprehension and an ignorance of both literary devices and various uses of the word fly (which is particularly ironic given a certain exclamation made especially popular by the movies).

Now for my controversial take: This "controversy" is pretty emblematic of the many ways the films distorted and mutilated Tolkien's stories and characters.

[–] justdaveisfine@piefed.social 7 points 16 hours ago

This one is starting to sway one direction more than the other but: Using AI for indie game development. (For music, voice work, art, code, writing, gameplay, etc)

You've probably seen many arguments for and against AI at this point so I won't harp on that too much. It is interesting/frustrating to see where some devs focuses are, and why this has contributed to an insane amount of AI art in games lately.

[–] zlatiah@lemmy.world 10 points 20 hours ago

So in rhythm games, chart reuse and "piracy" is... a surprisingly big issue that is related to copyright. This warrants a bit more explanation

For example, the IP of Dance Dance Revolution/DDR is owned solely by Bemani and Konami; both are Japanese companies which are not known for being generous with copyright, mind you. The DDR series produces lots of original music which are owned by the IP holders, and just about every chart (the thing you actually play) created for each piece of music in the game is also technically copyright protected

Problem is, DDR got wayyy too popular so there are a lot of clones out there; in fact most arcades in the US would have a "DDR" cabinet when it is actually a clone. Usually something like Stepmania (which is FOSS btw). Would it be considered piracy if someone else uses the official chart even though they are not running one of the officially licensed DDR cabs?

I don't know the details as to how it ended up like this, but it seems like a lot of games strictly ban such "piracy", whereas DDR is a bit of an outlier. Case in point, Beatmania series (one of the oldest rhythm game series) treats such acts as piracy, and the simulation community is onboard with this so all of the ripped official charts would be referred to as "illegal BMS"... but this is compensated by having a massive collection of community charts that have no affiliation with the IP holders of Beatmania whatsoever. DDR... seems to allow all of their charts to be released as simfiles, case in point.

There's also the funny case for Sound Voltex (SDVX). This game was also created by Konami, with lots of official songs/charts and a dedicated simulation community. Problem is that SDVX released a PC version of the game (don't buy their official controllers they are ass), and all of the official charts were reuploaded and became available to anyone playing the simulators. These charts are in a very weird legal limbo as far as I'm aware... but everyone knows that simulator users play the official charts

[–] MapleEngineer@lemmy.world 59 points 1 day ago (14 children)

I was banned from r/soapmaking because I refused to accept that buying soap that someone else made, melting it and adding glitter and perfume, and putting it into moulds was making soap.

I raise the pigs, render the lard, and turn the lard into soap using lye. I make soap. They do arts and crafts using soap.

[–] stoly@lemmy.world 3 points 9 hours ago

So I am on your side. What they are doing is not making soap as much as accessorizing existing soap.

[–] neidu3@sh.itjust.works 8 points 17 hours ago* (last edited 17 hours ago) (1 children)

I'm not even mildly part of the hobby, and even I am of the firm opinion that "soapmaking" involves the actual making of soap.

Nobody would call me a cook if I ran to the closest restaurant, grabbed some dish, added some spice and herbs on the way back, and "Voilla, steak de Neidu!"

Also, soap has a melting point?

[–] MapleEngineer@lemmy.world 5 points 16 hours ago

Glycerine soap does. It's called melt and pour soap.

https://canada.michaels.com/search?q=Melt+and+pour

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