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submitted 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) by namingthingsiseasy@programming.dev to c/programming@programming.dev

I've used a US-QWERTY keyboard layout my entire life. I've seen other layouts that do things like reduce the size of the enter/backspace keys, move the pipe operator (|) and can't wrap my head around how I would code on those.

What are your experiences? Are there any layouts that you prefer for coding over US English? Are there any symbols that you have a hard time reaching ($ for example)?

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[-] UndercoverUlrikHD@programming.dev 33 points 7 months ago

Never used a US keyboard in my life. Why would you think US keyboard is the norm?

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[-] Maturi0n@feddit.de 16 points 7 months ago

I am German and I use the German keyboard layout...

[-] joe_archer@lemmy.world 13 points 7 months ago

ISO for life.

You can keep your stupid tiny little enter key.

[-] mindlight@lemm.ee 4 points 7 months ago

This!

Oh good I hate that tiny little enter key.

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[-] JackGreenEarth@lemm.ee 12 points 7 months ago

I use the UK layout, because I am British. Why would I use the US layout?

[-] peter@feddit.uk 10 points 7 months ago

Average American trying to comprehend that people from other countries exist

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[-] azertyfun@sh.itjust.works 4 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

US-defaultism has a catch: it sometimes accidentally extends to the Commonwealth. You won't run into most of the internationalization quirks if all you're comparing is "British English vs American English".
[Sidebar: I notice this also when English speakers online assume that their audience at least has a vague idea of what Imperial units are, but while that is true of most native English speakers in the northern hemisphere who use feet and miles colloquially, for ESL audiences it's almost always incorrect]

I switched from AZERTY to US QWERTY permanently specifically to avoid all the issues of badly internationalized software. Bad default bindings (e.g. common vim operations like { requiring the use of AltGr), but also things like games not working at all or only partially (e.g. the number row being either unbindable, or key hints naively showing as "&" and "é" instead of "1" and "2"). Surprisingly few devs understand the difference between key codes and characters, and lots of indie games straight up don't even internationalize and require switching layouts (good luck if there is an in-game chat).
After getting into mechanical keyboards, the ANSI US keyboard layout has been useful as well because these are quite common. ISO mechanical keyboards are rarer, and Belgian AZERTY keycaps are borderline nonexistent.

Also in practice I use the qwerty-fr layout which is the US layout with a French layer on AltGr. The kicker? It's better at writing French than the French AZERTY which is missing a lot of letters (Ç, æ, œ, À, ...). AZERTY is a terrible layout but that's a separate discussion.

Of course the Americans should develop properly internationalized software, but I personally know several fellow Belgians who switched to QWERTY for (some of) the reasons outlined above.

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[-] Ferk@kbin.social 11 points 7 months ago

I use EURkey, which is basically a superset of the US layout extended to support symbols from several European languages.

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[-] shotgun_crab@lemmy.world 10 points 7 months ago

I'm pretty sure most people outside the US do that

[-] brokenlcd@feddit.it 10 points 7 months ago

I program with the italian layout and i's fine, the only annoyances are that to use the slash you need to use shift, all while the backslash has a dedicated key; also you need to use alt codes to type a tilde.

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[-] vext01@lemmy.sdf.org 7 points 7 months ago

If you don't live is the US, it's pretty common to not use a US keyboard!

Tried the maltron layout at one point. Nope.

[-] Zip2@feddit.uk 7 points 7 months ago

I’m British and use the ISO-UK layout.

I use a country-specific ISO layout, and while I'm very aware that certain things are insanely awkward compared to a US keyboard, like { }, [ ], $ and /, you get used to it. You get used to everything over time. I even use the default vim bindings and have gotten used to them as well.

[-] datelmd5sum@lemmy.world 3 points 7 months ago

I just press tab and the IDE sprinkles all that sugar for me.

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[-] ZeldaFreak@lemmy.world 7 points 7 months ago

I program like I learned it? I use my German QWERTZ layout. A lot of keys are different, yes, but I grew up with this layout and I'm used to it. Imagine giving me a US QWERTY layout and I would misstype every time. I even hate it when Windows swtiches my keyboard layout, even though I removed the shortcuts to it and I misstype constantly. Heck even Visual Studio switched my shortcuts and it sucked.

After some time I realized that (Game) Devs suck, because they forget that other layouts exist. Its not a big deal, but at some point I realized that the Chats on T, Y, U makes much more sense on a QWERTY Layout. Also Markdown with ` kinda sucks. For a codeblock, I need to hold shift and press the key that is left of backspace 3 times and then one space, because when I press it once, nothing happens but pressing it a second time, 2 appear. Pressing space let it appear directly. Or I type 4 and remove one.

But this it what I'm used to. And if I ever would work outside Germany, I will bring my own QWERTZ keyboard and require them to install the German Keyboard. I don't need a German UI. I have all programming related software in English, because its easier to google stuff.

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[-] CatLikeLemming@lemmy.blahaj.zone 6 points 7 months ago

It depends on what you're used to and the programming languages you use. I learned typing on a German QWERTZ keyboard and while that works for languages like Python and Haskell, which are indentation-based, but for languages which use braces like Java, C, Rust, or similar, it can be annoying to have to use altgr+7 or altgr+0 for { and }. Thus I switched to a US ANSI layout, which was nicer for those specific characters, but caused problems when typing local characters like öäüß. After switching to Linux I set up a compose key, letting me press compose + a + " for ä for example, and while that's a decent patch, that still breaks the typing flow. So now I'm in my ergo keyboard phase and trying to get my own personal layout going, which meets my own needs for needed characters, based on a colemak-dh design.

[-] Vorpal@programming.dev 6 points 7 months ago

Swedish layout. Not ideal for coding (too many things like curly and square brackets etc are under altgr. And tilde and backtick are on dead keys.

But switching back and forth as soon as you need to write Swedish (for the letters åäö) is just too much work. And yes, in the Swedish alphabet they are separate letters, not aao with diacretics.

[-] oscar@programming.dev 3 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

I'm swedish and I use EurKEY. It's basically US but makes it possible to use Å/Ä/Ö through altgr + W/A/O. I don't write that much swedish so I'm not too bothered, meanwhile the coding advantage is huge for ' " \ | / ? | [ ] { } .

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[-] snowe@programming.dev 6 points 7 months ago

my keyboard looks like this... so... no?

and honestly it's so much nicer to program with a small keyboard. everything is exactly where you need it to be. I don't ever have to reach for a key, as they're all right there. And I can make them do literally anything I want. So many benefits of a small keyboard over a full size.

[-] ericjmorey@programming.dev 3 points 7 months ago

When you install a fresh OS and it asks you about keyboard layout, how do you get it usable for this sort of keyboard?

[-] GeniusIsme@lemmy.world 3 points 7 months ago

Exactly. If you are a coder and care about ergonomics of layouts, get split programmable keyboard, do not try to find good layout for normal keyboard, they do not exist. I personally do not like the particular keyboard at the picture, but there are many others to choose from and find a good fit for everyone.

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[-] tuto193@lemmy.world 6 points 7 months ago

UK layout is the GOAT. It isn't that much different from US layout at first, but there are so many more special characters readily available. Particularly useful for multiple languages like Spanish, German, Swedish, etc.

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[-] Gobbel2000@feddit.de 5 points 7 months ago

I use Colemak where most punctuation is at the same place as in the US English layout, which programming languages seem to be optimized toward. For the layout I prefer ISO for the larger Enter key.

[-] Oha@lemmy.ohaa.xyz 5 points 7 months ago

I use german layout because I'm from Austria

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[-] Kimusan@feddit.dk 5 points 7 months ago

I prefer ISO layouts. ANSI somehow just seem inefficient to use. I habe layers for CODI g so I have my brackets/braces on the hometown along with other relevant keys. Long live custom keyboards

[-] lupec@lemm.ee 5 points 7 months ago

A lot of us don't live in the US to begin with, so I assume a significant portion of us just use whatever the local standard is. That's where I've been at so far, the Brazilian layout is a QWERTY variant so not that different. It does make some things more awkward, but you get used to what you have to work with.

Brackets and curly braces are less convenient off the top of my head, backticks too. Vim is a tad less ergonomic without some extra fiddling, for instance. In fact, I've been considering getting a US keyboard for coding to make that kinda thing less of an issue, US international makes accents and whatnot accessible enough that I think I could make it work.

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[-] bort@feddit.de 4 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

I use UK-Layout, with some remappings for my precious umlauts

q+altgr ->ü
a+altgr -> ä
s+altgr -> ß
z+algr -> ö

bonus: in contrast to the peasentry I have an uppercase ẞ (altgr+shift+s)

[-] rekabis@lemmy.ca 4 points 7 months ago

DVORAK all the way, baby. Hardware-based via Unicomp 104.

[-] TheFonz@lemmy.world 3 points 7 months ago

Dvorak gang here. Never going back to QWERTY.

[-] RecallMadness@lemmy.nz 4 points 7 months ago

I used to use ANSI, but then moved to England and bought a laptop and returned it because of the “weird” ISO keyboard, then forever bought dell because I could customise it.

Moved back to ANSIland, but will still probably just buy dell.

[-] Kusimulkku@lemm.ee 4 points 7 months ago

You just... get used to things. Like how you first got used to your keyboard to begin with

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[-] DirigibleProtein@aussie.zone 4 points 7 months ago

Well, technically Dvorak is a US-ANSI layout, so … no.

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[-] TCB13@lemmy.world 4 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

What are your experiences? Are there any layouts that you prefer for coding over US English? Are there any symbols that you have a hard time reaching ($ for example)?

I'm using a PT-PT ISO layout keyboard, zero issues reaching anything, works as good as your US keyboard for coding. Actually it might work better because I have a bigger "enter" key.

can’t wrap my head around how I would code on those.

Typical American trying to comprehend that people from other countries exist? :P

Think about it this way, all the EU keyboards are essentially the same as yours but tweaked to accommodate languages that have more special chars than English.

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[-] MonkderZweite@feddit.ch 4 points 7 months ago

CH layout, superior for everything inbetween german, italian and french. US layout has no äöü, which makes it cumbersome in daily use.

[-] 9point6@lemmy.world 3 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

I prefer a British keyboard layout as that's where I've always lived and that's what all the computers come with here.

Actually no, Apple fucks it up a bit by having a weird hybrid between US layout and British layout which is pretty infuriating to have to learn (opt+3 for the # character? wtf Apple?), particularly given I switch between PC and Mac daily

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[-] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 3 points 7 months ago

They told me not to reinvent the wheel, so all I need to program is this:

[-] Strider@lemmy.world 3 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Started on US, now using DE for decades. But able to still use us. Slash position is a plus there.

But Swiss, that's the stuff of nightmares! Oh and mac while usable unnecessarily sucks too imo.

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[-] Pamasich@kbin.social 3 points 7 months ago

I just use the Swiss keyboard layout. Here's an image from Wikipedia.

Don't have any experience with any others.

[-] tintinmaster@feddit.de 2 points 7 months ago

I use the German Layout Neo which has especially nice layers for programming https://neo-layout.org/

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this post was submitted on 29 Jan 2024
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