434
Wayland vs Xorg be like (sh.itjust.works)
submitted 9 months ago by loaExMachina@sh.itjust.works to c/linuxmemes@lemmy.world
74 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Yes, I made it using a laptop's trackpad, how could you tell?

[Image description: Panel 1: Young man confidently walking, his vest bears the Wayland logo. Behind him is a grunt with the Gnome logo on his face holding a katana. The young man says: "It's high time you retire, old man!" Panel 2: An old man with a long beard and the Xorg logo on his chest is sitting on a throne and petting a rat, the XFCE mascot. He says: "It's still a hundred years too early for you to defeat me!" ]

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[-] KISSmyOS@feddit.de 68 points 9 months ago

Today, X is like the horse and buggy proponents, claiming the car isn't feasible cause you can't get gasoline in every town.

[-] MotoAsh@lemmy.world 29 points 9 months ago

I mean, what's that one complaint about electric cars?

[-] Rustmilian@lemmy.world 10 points 9 months ago

That you get like no mileage after hours of changing?

[-] Kusimulkku@lemm.ee 10 points 9 months ago

Tbh horses need quite a bit of rest too

[-] Lichtblitz@discuss.tchncs.de 8 points 9 months ago

It's the same argument. Getting a reasonable amount of charging is possible in 15 minutes. But not everyone has immediate access to fast charging stations. If everyone could always make a deliberate decision whether to go easy on the battery and save money or having to be places, EVs may look much more appealing to a lot of people.

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[-] bruhduh@lemmy.world 59 points 9 months ago

RDT_20240210_0216455647139970498497433

[-] independantiste@sh.itjust.works 57 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Wayland gets so many more of the basics so much better than X11 it's not even funny anymore. X11 is stuttery, unsecure, unmaintaned, can't really be updated for new features that are pretty important in 2024 (VRR, HDR). For now with my usage, the only big disadvantage I saw from Wayland is that you can't restart it like X11 when something goes wrong, but that's the thing, I haven't had to restart it like I had to often with X11. Even on Nvidia Wayland is better now, except maybe for gaming but that's Nvidia for you.

[-] Rustmilian@lemmy.world 33 points 9 months ago

You absolutely can restart Wayland. The command to do so is just specific to whichever DE or WM you're using as they have their own Wayland Compositor implementation.

[-] Pantherina@feddit.de 10 points 9 months ago

DEs should implement good commands for that

  • start session from tty (example startplasma-wayland)
  • logout (example qdbus org.kde.ksmserver /KSMServer logout 0 3 3)
  • restart wayland server (example kwin_wayland --replace)

Some of those are completely undiscoverable

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[-] Aganim@lemmy.world 3 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

X11 is stuttery

Not for me

unsecure

Source?

unmaintaned

Received a number of commits just last week: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg

can't really be updated for new features that are pretty important in 2024 (VRR, HDR).

VRR is supported, at least on AMD: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Variable_refresh_rate

For HDR you have a point, afaik.

Wayland gets so many more of the basics so much better than X11 it's not even funny anymore.

And yet X11 works rock solid for me, while Wayland still crashes whenever I so much as look at it wrong. The amount of time and work I've lost because of Wayland crapping out on me isn't even funny anymore. On AMD by the way, so no blaming Nvidia's crappy Linux support.

Wayland will probably be the better product one day, but this day is not that day, at least not for every use-case. Great that it works fantastically for you, I genuinely advise you to keep using it, but keep in mind that 'mileage may vary' from person to person. Personally for now I'll stick to X11, as I need to get work done and unfortunately don't have time to muck around with Wayland's antics.

[-] Rustmilian@lemmy.world 14 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Not for me

Source?

The Xorg devs have literally stated as much themselves.

Received a number of commits just last week: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg

The vast majority of those commits are literally because of Xwayland.

VRR is supported, at least on AMD: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Variable_refresh_rate

Barely, it has numerous issues. The Wayland VRR implementations address much of those issues.

For HDR you have a point, afaik.

HDR literally can't be added to Xorg without rewriting the entire stack. They've been trying to get HDR working for something like around 10yrs before they gave up completely.
Wayland on the other hand has been designed from the ground up to be completely expandable, directly addressing the largest problem with Xorg, maintainability.

...at least not for every use-case... ...‘mileage may vary’ from person to person...

Yes, that's true. What would reduce edge cases however, is if you reported those bugs.

Wayland will probably be the better product one day...

That day is coming sooner then later.

Personally for now I’ll stick to X11...

That's fine, however you should switch as soon as it becomes viable to do so.

[-] Pantherina@feddit.de 7 points 9 months ago

X11 is insecure. Any program can read any keystroke, any windows contents, can input anything anywhere etc.

The concept of separate apps basically doesnt exist.

[-] WaterWaiver@aussie.zone 3 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Those security features are misleading.

A second app can already read all of your files, modify the first app, modify $PATH to replace your display server and do anything it wants as your user. Running wayland instead of Xorg provides no tangible benefits in security.

[-] Pantherina@feddit.de 6 points 9 months ago

Yes and wayland is a puzzle piece of fixing that.

The other one is containerized apps that use a trusted system portal to get opt-in filesystem access to actually needed directories.

[-] mlg@lemmy.world 2 points 9 months ago

10% FPS drop compared to X11 because of perfect frame requirements

X11 has literally never stuttered even on the hack that is WSL

The only time I have actually gotten X11 to crash was an unrelated kernel panic.

Also no one uses X11 networking by default lmao, its always X forward over SSH, that is definitely secure and still something wayland can't do.

[-] feral_hedgehog@pawb.social 4 points 9 months ago

Also no one uses X11 networking by default lmao, its always X forward over SSH, that is definitely secure and still something wayland can’t do.

Sure it can, with waypipe (like, for a while now...)
Just waypipe ssh <host> [command]

You can even run X apps over this through cage even when X11 forwarding is disabled by the host (because, you know, the security issues...)

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[-] psmgx@lemmy.world 21 points 9 months ago

Okay now do one with systemd

[-] dannoffs@lemmy.sdf.org 20 points 9 months ago

It's the systemd drama all over again

[-] nxdefiant@startrek.website 22 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

No.

System D was/Is a philosophical debate.

Wayland vs X is a mortal attempting to summit Mt. Everest naked. Everyone is cheering Wayland on, no one believes it'll succeed.

Even the X people are like "Honestly it'd be a relief if you pulled this off, we're so tired, please end us"

[-] Cris_Color@lemmy.world 32 points 9 months ago

No one thinks it'll succeed? Obviously you and I exist in very different parts of the linux sphere, cause I'm pretty sure X11 is all but dead as a project and its kinda just a question of how long it takes for Wayland to be feature complete enough to reach a critical mass of adoption. And its kinda feeling like we're currently on the cusp of being there with the major DEs moving towards discontinuing X11 support 😅

[-] azertyfun@sh.itjust.works 10 points 9 months ago

This software has been in development for a long time and still doesn't work for my niche usecase and this therefore UNUSABLE and DOOMED TO FAIL

  • Actual Linux users, completely oblivious to the irony of that sentence
[-] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 3 points 9 months ago

That's a weird take. You have a software that you use and suits your needs. It's showing its age, but still tricks along. Then there's this other software that's gaining spotlight, but it does not suit all your needs. You point out the regression. Some rando makes fun of your valid point.

[-] azertyfun@sh.itjust.works 4 points 9 months ago

I agree with what you're saying, but you're shifting the goalpost.

Everyone is cheering Wayland on, no one believes it’ll succeed

That parent comment (and other comments like it in these threads) are what I take issue with. You can make the exact same argument why people should stick with Windows and not bother with Linux.

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[-] nxdefiant@startrek.website 9 points 9 months ago

X is 36 years old. Wayland is 15. Wayland was not the first attempt at unseating that throne and for the sake of all our sanity, I hope it's the last. I don't want Wayland to win because it's better, I want Wayland to win because I'm tired of trying to use it and having to go back to X because it broke something.

[-] Holzkohlen@feddit.de 4 points 9 months ago

Sounds like a skill issue to me

[-] Kusimulkku@lemm.ee 20 points 9 months ago

Everyone is cheering Wayland on, no one believes it'll succeed.

Uhhmm. I think by now most see it inevitable with distros and DEs switching on increasing pace

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[-] Siegfried@lemmy.world 18 points 9 months ago

Chad X11

[-] MeanEYE@lemmy.world 12 points 9 months ago

Except X.org should be frail and have tubes running out of every orifice on their body. They are on life support and receiving updates only related to Xwayland.

[-] FrostyCaveman@lemm.ee 10 points 9 months ago

Is that the C++ mascot rat? As famously illustrated by rms?

[-] Revan343@lemmy.ca 16 points 9 months ago

I choose to believe that's the Xfce rat. The C++ one is fatter

[-] Rozauhtuno@lemmy.blahaj.zone 7 points 9 months ago

No one asked but, the mascot's name is Xue btw.

[-] Kusimulkku@lemm.ee 5 points 9 months ago

Can't be Xfce. No vsync line in the middle

[-] loaExMachina@sh.itjust.works 10 points 9 months ago

It's the Xfce mouse

[-] chemicalwonka@discuss.tchncs.de 9 points 9 months ago

Nice reference as Xfce still not implemented Wayland support as far as I know.

[-] spookedbyroaches@lemm.ee 24 points 9 months ago

Yeah duh. It's called X fce??!?

[-] chemicalwonka@discuss.tchncs.de 7 points 9 months ago

so when they finish Wayland implementation will be Wfce? lol

[-] Pantherina@feddit.de 6 points 9 months ago

They are working on it, while keeping the xorg session alive

[-] FluffyPotato@lemm.ee 7 points 9 months ago

Very true. Like I would love it if something worked as solidly as X but Wayland has had like 15 years to get it's shit together and it's still not there. There are plenty of people for who it does work too but 2 out of the 3 computers I use regularly have issues with Wayland.

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[-] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 6 points 9 months ago

Honestly it will never die but it will be a terrible idea to use it. I wouldn't be surprised if all of the major software drops support eventually

[-] backhdlp@iusearchlinux.fyi 5 points 9 months ago

At this rate, maybe 10

[-] fjordbasa@lemmy.world 5 points 9 months ago

A hundred years to early

[-] rollmagma@lemmy.world 4 points 9 months ago

This is good stuff right here.

[-] Corr@lemm.ee 4 points 9 months ago

One of the main issues blocking me from going to Wayland is an app (cursr) that lets me move my cursor between different resolution displays only runs in X. Is there a solution in Wayland for this? I can post elsewhere but thought this seemed like a decent first step

[-] TotalSonic@lemmy.world 4 points 9 months ago

As far as tablet usage goes - with Ubuntu 23.10 running the latest "Surface Linux" kernel on my Surface Go gen 1, Wayland is finally buttery smooth. Screen rotation with Wayland is near instant, where as on xorg takes a couple seconds.

I can't say the same for my dual boot desktop that has an Nvidia 1050ti in it going to a 55" tv monitor via HDMI though - had to hook up a second monitor from dvi just to be able to login - which was not the case on Xorg.

Oh well, baby steps, but Wayland is definitely growing up fast and getting closer to being daily dtiver ready for nearly all use cases.

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this post was submitted on 28 Feb 2024
434 points (96.4% liked)

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