Beehaw, Lemmy, and A Vision of the Fediverse - Ruminations on the past and visions of the future : support

[-] UrLogicFails@beehaw.org 50 points 8 months ago

It's honestly pretty frustrating to see the Lemmy Devs' responses whenever basic moderation tools are suggested.

While I think Beehaw does get a lot out of the wider federated community, it's really hard to make the case to stay when the devs are practically begging Beehaw to leave.

It sounds like (if I understood correctly) Beehaw is looking at an alternative platform that can still federate, which sounds like the best solution in my opinion.

It will certainly be very interesting to see what the future holds for Beehaw.

[-] acastcandream@beehaw.org 38 points 8 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

spoiler

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[-] UngodlyAudrey@beehaw.org 17 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Yeah, I'm getting very sick of these "free speech" types. Like, I don't want to create an echo chamber, but, seriously, we don't to hear the goddamn Nazi point of view. Platforming that sort of thing normalizes it. Mainstream platforms won't even permaban stochastic terrorists like LibsOfTiktok. In fact, social media platforms carry much of the blame for the divisiveness in society these days. That's why the Beehaw project is important. We need to show the world that there's a better way to do things. That it's possible to disagree with someone without being at each other's throats, entertaining dissenting opinions and perhaps reconsidering one's stance on things, and growing as a person by widening the pool of experiences one is exposed to. For example, I used to be a vague "libertarian" type, but my position has evolved to the point where I'm a left-wing anarchist now. People can change for the better. Again, I'm not saying we should listen to the ultra right wing's point of view, but I bet there's tons of people out there in their own little bubbles who have never left their homogeneous communities and have never heard the stories of the marginalized. We may not be able to change everyone's minds. But if we can change some, well, that's a win for all of us.

[-] Penguincoder@beehaw.org 16 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

I don’t want to create an echo chamber, but, seriously, we don’t to hear the goddamn Nazi point of view.

I've been avoiding comment on most of this thread because I really don't want to be seen as the instigator even more; however I wanted to comment on this specifically. Absolutely agreed with you on this point. I utterly hate the go with the flow, echo chamber style of discussions. I mean sure, if you're talking about how to make chocolate chip cookies, there's not really that many different ways to do it. Your recipe, will echo mine, for the same results. But in a lot of areas in life, there really are a lot of different takes. Your experiences and views and other nuances shape your ideas and expression on any given topic. They won't be the same as mine. And if they are, and all we talk about is 100% stuff I agree with; well, I ain't learning a damn thing am I? I'm just reinforcing my stance. Conclusion shopping. It is really important to have a different point of view that can be well explained and defended across the spectrum of what that may be.

There is no defense for treating people (human beings) as lessor than you because you disagree with their existence. Be it Nazi' Transpobia or otherwise. That's not a difference of opinion. That's a fundamental difference of what it means to be human. There is no echo chamber telling some wanna-be dictator POS' Nazi sympathizing fuck, to fuck off.

And then THEY bring friends and the friends bring friends and they stop being cool and then you realize, oh *****, this is a Nazi bar now,” he continued. ”And it's too late because they're entrenched and if you try to kick them out, they cause a PROBLEM. So you have to shut them down. - Michael B. Tager

If 10 people are sitting at a table and one of them is a Nazi, then you have 10 Nazis.

Beehaw wants zero of those people, echo chamber be damned.

[-] acastcandream@beehaw.org 7 points 8 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

spoiler

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[-] Shadow@lemmy.ca 38 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

I think it's reasonable to say that most users and admins came to lemmy looking for a reddit alternative in the Fediverse. At first glance, lemmy ticks this box pretty perfectly.

Once you dig deeper though, it's obvious the devs don't share the same vision as some of those new admins and users. That's fine, it's their software, they can do what they want with it. It just means maybe it's time to move onto something better, maybe that's going to be sublinks.

[-] Gaywallet@beehaw.org 44 points 8 months ago

We were explicitly looking to not replicate Reddit - while both are link aggregator websites, we didn't particularly like the general vibe present on Reddit. I think a lot of folks on Beehaw agree with that premise, but functionally speaking there's not a huge difference between the platforms or communities. A lot of the difference seems to be about the vision and philosophy of what the place can and should be.

[-] Shadow@lemmy.ca 36 points 8 months ago

Given the goals and focus of beehaw, I honestly expected you to defederate from the rest of us. Thank you for not, and sticking around as a positive force in our community ❤️

[-] bownage@beehaw.org 30 points 8 months ago

Thanks Beehaw admins for continuing to have a vision for a better internet and for reminding me once again that there really are online communities that try to be and do good.

I don't post or comment a lot on Beehaw specifically, because I often feel like I won't have the energy or head space to write something that really contributes to the community. It's a strange sort of impostor syndrome related idea where I feel like the quality of content on Beehaw should be so high that I might not reach it without really trying. After all, I want the community to be the best it can be(e).

That being said, I do read a lot of what's going on here and I especially appreciate the frequent posters on the communities I subscribe to. Taking into account the issues with lemmy as illuminated by the Beehaw admins here, I feel some sense of urgency - I want to protect Beehaw, its content and its community of kind people from disappearing, or having its continuation be threatened, simply because it exists on lemmy.

I guess in the end I just want to say that I really appreciate that the admin team is taking steps to preserve the wonderful community they have built and cultivated. While I haven't been that excited about Beehaw potentially moving to a different platform, you make a very good case for it and I'd honestly be happy to follow Beehaw wherever it goes :)

[-] Gaywallet@beehaw.org 21 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

I really appreciate you taking the time to write this up. I want to assure you that not everything has to be perfectly worded and your presence and words are always contributions whether you feel they are or not 💜💜 After all, you cannot know what someone else is thinking or how much they appreciate what you've said, especially if they worry about their ability to contribute too!

As for the community itself, don't worry, we're not going to let it languish or disappear. I can't speak for the entire admin team, but it's one of the highlights of my life and will do everything in my power to keep it healthy. With that being said a community is not a one person job and I'm glad people like you are around to contribute 😄

[-] admin@beehaw.org 14 points 8 months ago

I can’t speak for the entire admin team, but it’s one of the highlights of my life and will do everything in my power to keep it healthy.

Same here!

[-] bownage@beehaw.org 10 points 8 months ago

Thanks so much for the kind words 🥰

[-] wintermute@feddit.de 29 points 8 months ago

Running an instance myself, the lack of mod-tools is very frustrating for quite some time now. I totally agree with pretty much all improvements beehaw suggested in the past to solve these issues. It's a shame how this topic is handled...

[-] chloyster@beehaw.org 26 points 8 months ago

Well written y'all. Happy to be here and thanks for continuing to advocate for our ethos!

[-] LallyLuckFarm@beehaw.org 24 points 8 months ago

I always appreciate how much thought, effort, and time you all put into these documents and the community and everything; thank you from the bottom of my heart. There's no place I'd rather bee, and whatever direction ends up being taken I'll gladly come along.

There was an event I used to go to every few months. When you got there, you'd head up to the registration tent to check in but the first thing said to you was always "welcome home!" and the second was "do you like hugs?". That's how it feels here, like walking into a tent of people who care that you're here because they want you to share in the positivity they've found.

[-] millie@beehaw.org 17 points 8 months ago

There's definitely something about walking down a trail in the woods carrying a bunch of gear a mile or two when suddenly you start running into hippies coming the other way, welcoming you home and telling you you're almost there. And then it becomes trail-side camps, and then the big tent.

I think I need to go find a council. :D

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[-] BuxtonWater@beehaw.org 22 points 8 months ago

Make sure to let us know where to migrate to before this place potentially shuts down, I wanna stay with this community.

[-] ninjaphysics@beehaw.org 6 points 8 months ago

Same here! It's been lovely to learn from all of you, and I'd love to keep doing exactly that.

[-] Hirom@beehaw.org 15 points 8 months ago

Are there enough admins and developers fed up with Lemmy to maintain a fork?

[-] admin@beehaw.org 19 points 8 months ago

The problem with this, in my opinion, is Lemmy is written in Rust. From what I can tell, there aren't enough Rust developers to pitch in AND there are better languages to use in a web application.

[-] SorteKanin@feddit.dk 20 points 8 months ago

I really don't think the language is the problem here. I wrote some thoughts here https://feddit.dk/comment/6556927

I'm a professional software developer using Rust so I guess you can either call me "biased" or "qualified to answer", but take that how you will.

But I suppose time will tell if some other threadiverse implementation in another language takes over.

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[-] MrSpArkle@lemmy.ca 12 points 8 months ago

The best language is subjective, but performance-wise most traditional web-oriented languages are dogshit slow and will incur huge costs both in hosting and performance mitigations. Things like rust, go, or C will ensure long term performance.

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[-] Hirom@beehaw.org 8 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

An option is to add a plugin system or API that allows integrating mod/filter tools written in other languages.

Email systems already do something like this. Postfix and others support milters (mail filters) which run as a separate process and communicate via a socket.

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[-] communist@beehaw.org 12 points 8 months ago

A fork wouldn't help anything at all, the problem is that nobody is working on the patches not that the devs won't accept them

[-] ericjmorey@beehaw.org 7 points 8 months ago

Probably not. There are several alternative projects being worked on with varying states of completeness and refinement. But the alternatives all seem to have off set visions for their projects.

[-] Spoodle@beehaw.org 15 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Thank you admins for being so transparent with the users and putting in the hard work! The energy and thought you put into this community is outstanding and I really appreciate it!

[-] ashen@beehaw.org 15 points 8 months ago

I haven't commented on anything in quite a long time, but I've been checking in now and then and I just wanted to say that wherever Beehaw goes, I'll be following. Really immature behaviour from the Lemmy devs.

[-] admin@beehaw.org 11 points 8 months ago

Really immature behaviour from the Lemmy devs.

IKR? I've been working with developers for 30 years now and I've never seen this level of egregiousness. In my opinion, the Lemmy devs are way out of line here.

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[-] Lionir@beehaw.org 7 points 8 months ago

Hope to see you more, silly bean!

[-] DreamyRin@beehaw.org 15 points 8 months ago

having come from reddit, where I was ignored or didn't feel safe commenting, Beehaw is a breath of fresh air. and it makes me hopeful.

I don't really participate in Discord servers anymore (after watching several explode) so this is a lot of my social interaction. I'm still not super confident in my ability to engage (especially on topics I don't know a lot about, but I like learning, so I like to read those threads regardless) because similar to what someone else mentioned in the thread, I don't know that I have a lot of value to add.

I really enjoy my time here, is what I'm trying to say. I told my partner immediately after reading this "wherever they go, I'll follow" and I meant it. this is also my first experience with Lemmy, but I'm not attached to the software. what works for the community works for me.

just trying to offer words of support! you guys 1000% deserve it. so happy I came back.

[-] MangoKangaroo@beehaw.org 13 points 8 months ago

Y'all already know that I'm staying with Beehaw wherever it goes (so long as I'm not the only one!)

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[-] jarfil@beehaw.org 10 points 8 months ago

IMHO you might be overthinking things a bit, while missing some other parts.

First, Lemmy is a NLnet project funded by the EU. The lead devs don't work for free, and proposing "bug bounties" could be seen as competition and/or not in their personal interest.

Second, Lemmy is two layers in a tech stack:

ActivityPub
Mastodon
Lemmy server
Lemmy client

The focus of Lemmy devs is on the server side, with the rest basically a MVP to keep ongoing funding (NLnet funding is tricky on its own, the main two devs have little room to do anything they didn't get pre-approved for, if they want to get paid).

There is nothing inherently wrong with that, but it means they are not "project leads" or "community leads", and they won't care about it either.

What Beehaw seems to need, is one or two additional layers to the stack:

Mod tools
Community building (current mods seem to work fine for Beehaw)
Community features (seems to be a good number of bots out there)
Extra features

This is not something the Lemmy devs are able or willing to do, so Beehaw and similar projects will need to add them, or find them somewhere else.

I would suggest starting bug/feature bounties for whatever is needed, on a forked repo of Lemmy; take from upstream whatever works, and leave Lemmy devs to run their own show. Maybe call it "Beemy" or something.

[-] Penguincoder@beehaw.org 8 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

That would be great to hear from the devs in response to why can't you work on feature? If the reason is because someone else is setting the software priorities so the devs can get PAID; okay got it. Instead we get the contradictory answers of:

But are my priorities not my own?

or

No we arent getting paid, there is no employment contract with anyone .

So which is it?? The Lemmy devs priorities are their own and their priorities don't line up with most of the community; or their priorities are beholden to what NLNet says so they ~~don't~~ get paid??

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[-] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 8 months ago

The focus of Lemmy devs is on the server side, with the rest basically a MVP to keep ongoing funding (NLnet funding is tricky on its own, the main two devs have little room to do anything they didn’t get pre-approved for, if they want to get paid).

That's not actually true. You can discuss with NLNet and change your tasks midway.

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[-] rickyrigatoni@lemm.ee 9 points 8 months ago

If I had a nickel for every time a FOSS project was killed by shitty lead devs, I'd have a lot of nickels.

[-] jarfil@beehaw.org 8 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

If I had a nickel for every time a FOSS project got forked and left the old leads in the dust... I wonder who'd end up with more nickels 🤷

[-] rickyrigatoni@lemm.ee 8 points 8 months ago

Me because that takes more effort than just being a bastard dev from hell. But I'd like to see it happen this time.

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[-] 100@fedia.io 9 points 8 months ago

you did not mention the other fedi project that is similar to lemmy in functionality (kbin/mbin), have you tried working with them instead?

[-] ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.net 23 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

There's also Piefed (Federates with Lemmy and is sympathetic to Beehaw, created with Python and Flask), and Sublinks (Drop-in replacement for Lemmy created with Java).

Also, I would personally be a little wary of choosing Kbin, as the developer's behavior over the past few months has been concerning. Mbin would likely be the better option between the two, but that's just my 2 cents.

[-] Lionir@beehaw.org 17 points 8 months ago

I did not know about this Piefed feature, that's really cool!

[-] Gaywallet@beehaw.org 16 points 8 months ago

🥰 aww that's such a cute feature 🥺

[-] Sorse@discuss.tchncs.de 7 points 8 months ago

Also, I would personally be a little wary of choosing Kbin, as the developer's behavior over the past few months has been concerning. Mbin would likely be the better option between the two, but that's just my 2 cents.

Can you explain please

[-] ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.net 18 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

I don't want to be too negative here, and to any mods that read this, if this is too negative, feel free to remove this post. But in the time that I've been a Kbin user, this is what I've personally witnessed.

The Kbin developer has a tendency to disappear with no communication for months at a time, likely caused by taking on way more load than one person can handle without burning out (He is virtually the only developer of Kbin, is taking on developing the Kbin mobile app, is the only admin of the largest Kbin instance, Kbin.social, and the only moderator of multiple communities there, which have languished in his absence, as seen in the posts on m/Kbin and m/Kbin Meta).

He appears to have an extreme lack of trust in others, wanting instead to take on all responsibility himself. This becomes an issue when he disappears, since he is the only one with merge privileges on the Kbin github, resulting in many PR's for hotly requested features languishing until he suddenly reappears, having been silently working on some aspect of the backend without informing anyone else, making collaboration difficult.

That difficulty appears to be why Kbin was forked into Mbin.

As an example of the trust issues: Even though the Kbin community has repeatedly asked to be able to help him manage Kbin.social, either as an admin or putting in requests to moderate his communities filled to the brim with spam, nothing has changed, and it's been business as usual.

Before his most recent absence, he mentioned he was going in for a minor surgery that would leave him laid up for a couple days, then went radio silent for over a month, leading people to fear the worst. When he reappeared recently, his explanation for why he didn't post a quick "Hey guys, I'm okay, but won't be around for X time," was that he didn't want to "Cause chaos." 🫤

[-] alyaza@beehaw.org 10 points 8 months ago

it's on the big list of possible alternatives that we're investigating

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