Why is brawl allowed in NHL? : outoftheloop

[-] GiantChickDicks@lemmy.ml 19 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

I am a huge hockey fan. Let's go, Predators!

Yes, the fights are fun for fans, but they happen for a reason. Hockey is fast-paced and dangerous. Highly skilled players are targeted, and it's not difficult to cheap shot a hit and put a valuable player on the injured reserve list. Enforcers are players whose main job is to bring a physical presence and protect their teammates. Fights most often happen as a response to a questionable hit. If you are the type of person who wants to rough up another player, you may think twice about it if that team has a big dude who will punch your face in for being dirty.

It's also a morale thing. Sometimes when a team is getting pounded and underperforming, a fight will ignite and inspire the rest of the team to continue that energy. Sometimes teams simply hate each other due to rivalry or history, and their players are more likely to take offense to something.

Love it or hate it, it is a cultural norm in the game. The NHL made moves years ago to try to phase it out, but it seems lately to have come back with a vengeance. I'd personally rather see fighting than cheap-shotting, as injuries very rarely result from a fight.

Plus, if you really hate a player, it's so satisfying seeing them get punched in the face.

[-] Toastypickle@lemmy.world 6 points 7 months ago

Weird seeing a fellow Preds fan in the wild of the fediverse! Only thing I miss about reddit is r/predators, lemmy just doesn't have the numbers for niche communities.

Just wanted to add it's not always a big dude doing the face punching. Go watch some videos of Jordin Tootoo in his heyday. Dude was tough as fuck and didn't back down from anybody.

[-] GiantChickDicks@lemmy.ml 3 points 7 months ago

I had the privilege of watching Tootoo ravage someone live and in person a few times, haha. I was just talking about him the other day as an example of small but serious. I miss the Tootoo whistles.

It's so great to find another Preds fan on Lemmy! So glad we broke the streak last night against the Blues, and I'm becoming cautiously excited about the playoffs. I went down to Nashville when we lost in the finals in 2017 and am still recovering from the feels.

[-] Toastypickle@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago

I didn't think that 2017 team was going far in the playoffs and they shocked everybody. Maybe this team can make a run like that again. Nothing better in sports than playoff hockey!

[-] finthechat@kbin.social 13 points 7 months ago

Hockey: fighting is allowed

/thread

[-] DoctorButts@kbin.melroy.org 13 points 7 months ago

Well, you said it yourself, the NHL is not the NBA lol.

Context for why they fought in this game:

The red white and blue team is the New York Rangers. The red white and black team is the New Jersey Devils. They are indeed long time divisional rivals. The hatred is real. Also for context, the last time these two teams played, a Rangers player injured a Devils player with a nasty hit; he was challenged to a fight then but refused. So the tension had already built up.

Context for why they were allowed to fight:

Fighting has always been allowed in hockey. Big line brawls like this used to be more common even into the 2000s. They have become rare starting in the 2010s when the NHL meta shifted from "have dedicated face punchers fill out the bottom of the roster because they are scary to play against" to the new meta of "have skilled players even at the bottom of the roster because winning games is more important."

If you're wondering why the officials don't break them up immediately, it's a matter of practicality. There are only 4 on ice officials and there 10 angry dudes punching each other. Best to let them tire themselves out before intervening. Usually they will reach a point where they stop on their own. Also, the referees never break up scrums or fights even if there are only 2-3 guys fighting - this is so they can accurately pay attention to all of the infractions and make the proper penalty calls after it is all settled.

[-] mosiacmango@lemm.ee 9 points 7 months ago

All of this is true, but it's also allowed because the fans like the fights, which keeps them buying tickets.

That's the core reason. The rest of the "practical" reasons you listed could be resolved if the owners really wanted the fights to stop. They dont.

[-] Acters@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago

On your point about practicality. I think a big point about not breaking up fights is that they are on ice, which is slippery, and they won't have a good grip on the ground, and on skates so not the most solid footing. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying it's not a worthwhile risk when both hockey players have full gear vs. a ref with minimal gear.

Plus, the context of it being accepted as part of tradition weighs on why it's not as heavily regulated. If they wanted to, officials can force teams to be disqualified or ban players. Another point is It is more profitable to allow fights. Unless players themselves argue to ban fights for their safety, this will likely stay legal. The fact is, the new meta of having a good team but able to rough up the opposing team is better than it was before. Also quite a bit more enjoyable too.

[-] DoctorButts@kbin.melroy.org 2 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying it's not a worthwhile risk when both hockey players have full gear vs. a ref with minimal gear.

This sounds reasonable, but no. Fights are successfully broken up all the time by the officials. It has gotten really irritating in the last 10 years how quickly they will jump in and separate players. Sometimes they will even jump in too soon, which results in a guy being held by an official but still getting punched by his opponent.

If you are confused by one of my other comments where I say "referees will never break up fights" it's because the refs don't break up fights, but the linesmen do. Refs: guys in striped shirts with an orange armband, linesmen: guys in striped shirts without.

Also everyone saying that the league wants more fighting clearly doesn't follow the NHL. The NHL has been steadily introducing rules over the last decade specifically to decrease the amount of fighting because they are wary of a similar CTE (chronic traumatic encephaly, aka brain damage) controversy that has taken root in the NFL and the WWE and they are afraid of getting their asses sued into the ground.

[-] Acters@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago

I am highlighting a limitation. Also, I never saw them break up fights by being able to "carry" or restrain players away from each other like other sports. It's much harder to do on the ice. A lot of times, the linesmen are mostly separating the players by strategically intercepting between the players' line of sight by pushing in between the players. On top of that, the players have enough sense that they should not hurt an official, especially when it's not advantageous back when it was the meta to have brawlers. However, there were moments when the players ignored the linesmen interception and kept going. Small example: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yDkNvuuENwo

Also, I'm not saying the league wants more fights. They want to control those fights because they are profitable for entertainment, IE the fans and surrounding community are entertained by the drama. Having a fight break out for no reason other than to cause harm was not fun or much for entertainment. However, talking smack or telling someone off for bad plays/manners is fun to see.

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[-] NeoNachtwaechter@lemmy.world -4 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

a matter of practicality. There are only 4 on ice officials and there 10 angry dudes punching each other.

LMAO you are just saying these referees are weaklings.

Ok so why don't they deal these players a 5 or 6 figure penalty plus a ban for half a year, and their team has to play without spectators at their next home game... it needs to hurt more than one blow in the face.

[-] DoctorButts@kbin.melroy.org 5 points 7 months ago

Damn dude, tell us all you know nothing about hockey without telling us you know nothing about hockey.

[-] edgemaster72@lemmy.world 8 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

It's allowed so we can bust out the classic line "I went to a fight and a hockey game broke out"

[-] 65gmexl3@lemmy.world 2 points 7 months ago

It's not hockey if there's no fight

[-] Alexc 5 points 7 months ago

Not a hockey fan either, but I’ve often asked this question of my friends that are. They all same the same thing: The fans enjoy and expect it. To me, it’s dumb. One team ends up a player (or two) down, and that’s when a lot fo the scoring happens. Ergo, you fight and you are more likely to lose. Pretty much any other sport in the world and you’re off the field of play, and often for a long period of time.

FWIW, this is also why I’m not a hockey fan…

[-] decerian@lemmy.world 9 points 7 months ago

You seem to misunderstand how the penalties work out. 95% of the time after a fight happens, both teams get offsetting penalties, and so neither team is at a disadvantage because of the fight alone. There are instances where one team ends up with more penalties after a fight, but it's usually because of something that happened before the fight and prompted the fight (and should've been a penalty anyway)

[-] Tanoh@lemmy.world 2 points 7 months ago

They added the instigator penalty to cut down fights as well. The player deemed responsible for startibg the fight gets an extra penalty, and that does indeed give the other team an advantage.

[-] DoctorButts@kbin.melroy.org 7 points 7 months ago

Instigator penalties aren't given out every time people fight, they are only given in cases where one dude goes waaaaaaaay out his way to start a fight. The rest of the time the fighting penalties are even which doesn't result in a power play for either team.

[-] decerian@lemmy.world 3 points 7 months ago

As the other user commented, instigator is hardly ever actually used.

NHL reffing is... not great most of the time. Despite being a fan of the sport, I would like to see changes that would reduce the future rates of TBI among players. Refs actually enforcing the rules would probably help a bit there.

[-] DoctorButts@kbin.melroy.org 6 points 7 months ago

One team ends up a player (or two) down, and that’s when a lot fo the scoring happens. Ergo, you fight and you are more likely to lose.

FWIW, this is also why I’m not a hockey fan…

I think you have a misconception about the rules. Hopefully if I clear this up, you may give hockey another shot.

One team ends up a player (or two) down, and that’s when a lot fo the scoring happens

True. In hockey this is called a power play. It's a well known fact about hockey that most of the scoring in a game happens during the power play. Power plays are a common occurrence in every game as a result of standard penalties (ie not fighting) such as high sticking (hitting a player above the shoulders with your stick), hooking (using your stick to 'hook' a player to try and slow them down), slashing (using your stick to whack someone, usually across the hands), etc.

Ergo, you fight and you are more likely to lose.

False. When players fight, they are given equal concurrent penalties. Both of their teams remain at even strength and there is no power play.

[-] fuzzzerd@programming.dev 1 points 7 months ago

True, but then you get that fantastic four on four play which is wildly more hectic and entertaining.

[-] elbarto777@lemmy.world 2 points 7 months ago

All good points. Just a minor thing, but when you say "you fight, you're more likely to lose," I'm not sure if this is true, because for a team to lose, another team has to win. So you could very well aay "you fight, you're more likely to win."

Now, you could make a case of a team that could easily and overwhelmingly beat the second team, and if they fight, they're more likely to lose players, and thereby, they're more likely to lose. Because if they fight, the other team could lose players, so if they fight.... they would win anyway, so the likelihood of winning doesn't increase.

[-] Blackout@kbin.run 4 points 7 months ago

It doesn't need a point, just like why is there a 3 point zone in basketball, or why does a football look like an egg and is played with the hands 99% of the time. I grew up playing hockey and the fighting is just tradition. You don't watch it or play it so of course you don't understand. I don't play cricket and can't understand why anyone would want to watch it but it's the most popular sport in India.

Different strokes for different folks.

[-] 65gmexl3@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago

I mean if brawling in an NBA game is normal then I would not find it weird in NHL. Different sports have different rules. I get that but fighting in-game? This doesn't happen in other sports (at least in NBA, football). If players started punching, refs (and/or the court security guard if necessary) will stop the fight right away.

[-] Blackout@kbin.run 5 points 7 months ago

Boxing, MMA, sumo wrestling, lots of sports have physical contact. From the beginning it was in hockey. Not the same for basketball. If hockey was invented today I can guarantee it wouldn't have it now but it wasn't. It was part of the rules from the beginning and the people who play and watch it don't want it gone. To be honest I can't stand to sit and watch an entire basketball game, too slow and boring for me.

[-] Telodzrum@lemmy.world 3 points 7 months ago

Hell, the NBA used to have physical contact before it got boring.

[-] fuzzzerd@programming.dev 2 points 7 months ago

It definitely doesn't look like the same game I grew up watching. That's for sure.

[-] rigatti@lemmy.world 4 points 7 months ago

One thing that I didn't see mentioned is that, unlike in other sports, the players are on ice. This makes it much more difficult to throw punches, and players can usually go back and forth without getting seriously injured.

[-] kandoh@reddthat.com 3 points 7 months ago

Because in Hockey players have three deadly weapons on them and the thought process is that if you let them have fist fights you reduce players taking out their frustrations using their sticks or skates.

[-] 65gmexl3@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago

Makes sense

Out of the loop