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submitted 7 months ago by mozz@mbin.grits.dev to c/technology@beehaw.org
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[-] Drinvictus@discuss.tchncs.de 81 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Downvote me into oblivion but Kagi ain't shit. It's a glorified Google frontend. The author is right that the web is filled with AI generated articles and fake reviews and lists but Kagi is not immune to this enshittification.

I even tried the same query the author was bitching about. Here is Kagi's first two links for top 10 air purifiers. Notice how the first result is a BS website called top10.com and the second one is one of the "fake review" websites .

And here is Google's. First result is Wirecutter, and this might be subjective but I trust Wirecutter reviews on most things.

Rest of the Google results are exactly what the author was mentioning. But Kagi was no different.

So $10/month to get the same shit? No thank you. I agree that Google turned to shit compared to what it was but it is still the best search engine out there. Now if the article was about privacy concerns then they would have a point. Which is what Kagi is all about anyway. So let's stop the fucking act.

[-] fwygon@beehaw.org 39 points 7 months ago

I pay nothing for running SearXNG locally on my machine.

[-] Drinvictus@discuss.tchncs.de 7 points 7 months ago
[-] fwygon@beehaw.org 11 points 7 months ago

The nice thing is that I can customize it however I like too; change weights, choose which engines to pull from always, or even from search to search; so I'm not getting cruft.

SearXNG always rearranges the crap most engines serve to the bottom without fail.

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[-] Atemu@lemmy.ml 26 points 7 months ago

Your search results look very different to mine:

Did you disable Grouped Results?

All the LLM-generated "top 10" listicles are grouped into one large block I can safely ignore. (I could hide them entirely but the visual grouping allows for easy mental filtering, so I haven't bothered.) Your weird top10 fake site does not show up.

But yes, as the linked article says, Kagi is primarily a proxy for Google with some extra on top. This is, unfortunately, a feature as Google's index still reigns supreme for general purpose search. It absolutely is bad and getting worse but sadly still the best you can get. Using only non-Google indices would just result in bad search results.
The Google-ness is somewhat mitigated by Kagi-exclusive features such as the LLM garbage grouping.

What Google also cannot do is highlighted in my screenshot: You can customise filtering and ranking.
The first search result is a Reddit thread with some decent discussion because I configured Kagi to prefer Reddit search results. In the case of household appliances, this doesn't do a whole lot as I have not researched trusted/untrusted sources in this field yet but it's very noticeable in fields like programming where I have manually ranked sites.

Kagi is not "all about" privacy. It's a factor, sure but ultimately you still have to trust a U.S. company. Better than "trusting" a known abuser (Google, M$) but without an external audit, I wouldn't put too much wight into this.
The index ain't it either as it's mostly Google though sometimes a bit better.
What really sets it apart is the features. Customised ranking aswell as blocking some sites outright (bye bye pinterest and userbenchmark) are immensely useful. So are filtering garbage results that Google still likes to return.

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[-] mozz@mbin.grits.dev 11 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

I wouldn't use "air purifier" as a metric, since it was already a big public story that surely any search engine that's even half paying attention would have made sure the results for are good. Probably some other consumer good is better for an un-preannounced test run.

(Also I'm not sure that searching "top 10 air purifier" and complaining that you got a top result of top10.com/air-purifiers and that's not what you wanted makes a ton of sense. FWIW, I did try "air purifier" just out of curiosity and saw a very clear result that DDG had the best results, Google second, and Kagi third.)

I repeated it for "good wireless router" and saw different results; for them, the outcomes were fairly similar with Kagi somewhat better (returning Wirecutter as the top result, and an obselete Stack Exchange answer as the 2nd, which okay it's not right but I get where you're coming from sir), and Google and DDG as secondary (returning PCMag and CNet at the top and Wirecutter only further down below).

[-] thejevans@lemmy.ml 9 points 7 months ago

I searched both Cory Doctorow's post and the linked 404media article in his post for "air purifier" and found nothing. What author are you referencing?

[-] AnonStoleMyPants@sopuli.xyz 6 points 7 months ago

Dunno, I got entirely different results. Reddit, homeairguides, forbes, a bunch of listicles like consumerreports, wired, ny times, cnet and whatnot, and other websites.

[-] noodlejetski@lemm.ee 42 points 7 months ago

I'm still steering clear from Kagi after how they handled criticism after they started including Brave's index

[-] Atemu@lemmy.ml 27 points 7 months ago

That whole situation was such an overblown idiotic mess. Kagi has always used indices from companies that do far more unethical things than committing the extreme crime of having a CEO who has stupid opinions on human rights.
I 100% agree with Vlad's response to this whole thing and anyone who thinks otherwise should question what exactly it is they're criticising.

I don't like Brave (super shady IMHO) and certainly not their CEO but I didn't sign up for a 100% ethically correct search engine, I signed up for a search engine with innovative features and good search results. The only viable alternatives are to use 100% not ethically correct search indices with meh (Google) to bad (Bing, DDG) search results. If you're going to tell me how Google and M$ are somehow ethical, I'm going to have to laugh at you.

The whole argument amounts to whining about the status quo and bashing the one company that tries anything to change it. The only way to get away from the Google monopoly is alternative indices. Yes those alternatives may not be much more ethical than friggin Google. So what.

[-] FlashMobOfOne@beehaw.org 14 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

You can't really engage as a consumer without enabling shitty practices on some level, and that's particularly true of electronics.

The phone you're using to access Beehaw? Assembled by child labor or wage slaves somewhere in Asia. Even if you assembled it yourself, the parts were manufactured unethically.

It's not just Amazon or Nestle. You might as well criticize someone for breathing because unethical consumption, on some level, is inevitable, particularly so if you live in a capitalist country.

I use Brave because its ad block feature works better than the others I've tried, plain and simple.

But, by all means, people can still be as holier than thou as they like.

[-] noodlejetski@lemm.ee 8 points 7 months ago

The phone you're using to access Beehaw? Assembled by child labor or wage slaves somewhere in Asia. Even if you assembled it yourself, the parts were manufactured unethically.

which is one of the reasons why I own a Fairphone.

and sure, you can't avoid all bad choices, but everyone draws a line somewhere. and when a techbro makes a techbroy post about how eVErYThiNg iS pOLiTiCiZeD ThESe dAyS and how that's supposedly stopping innovation, because people like me don't want him to work with a guy with a history of opposing our rights, then I stop having confidence in him and cancel my subscription because I don't want to support him financially anymore.

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[-] fwygon@beehaw.org 12 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

I genuinely won't even use Brave indexes on my SearXNG instance; I have the engines disabled. My search quality has not suffered; as most of my results end up being DDG or Yahoo anyways; and Brave was only ever duplicating results from other engines anyways.

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[-] greysemanticist@lemmy.one 29 points 7 months ago

One of my best monthly expenses. I also appreciate being able to block low-quality domains from my search results.

[-] Imprudent3449@lemm.ee 10 points 7 months ago

I am fucking sick of monthly subs... Happily pay for kagi. It's really great at just getting you the results you need sorted right at the top.

[-] fwygon@beehaw.org 10 points 7 months ago

I can do everything Kagi does for free...using SearXNG.

[-] kandykarter@lemmy.ca 5 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

How do you duplicate this feature in SearXNG? https://help.kagi.com/kagi/features/website-info-personalized-results.html

It's basically the major thing keeping me with Kagi.

[-] notfromhere@lemmy.ml 5 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

That seems like a crutch instead of a real feature. I hate even just thinking about having to manage that. What if you want info from sites you do not already know about? Seems like finding new things through search is basically dead anymore.

[-] kandykarter@lemmy.ca 6 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Websites I've never heard of come up very frequently. The feature I find highly useful involves a) hiding shitty disinformation websites as I encounter them, or blocking sites like pintrest, and b) elevating results from websites I like, like having letterboxd results rank higher than IMDB when I search for movies or whatEVER.

Being able to customize my own results to favour what I'm actually looking for is such a crutch.

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[-] Danterious@lemmy.dbzer0.com 25 points 7 months ago

If kagi is just an aggregate of other search engines why not just use a searx instance instead? Its open source and customizable.

[-] kandykarter@lemmy.ca 8 points 7 months ago

SearXNG

I'd consider it if they had some of the features Kagi has like raising/lowering/pinning/excluding certain websites from results, but every time I try it it still feels very light on features.

[-] Steve@communick.news 6 points 7 months ago

Because it's not just that.

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[-] Bishma@discuss.tchncs.de 19 points 7 months ago

I started using Kagi a few months before $10 became unlimited queries.

When I first switched I'd still, occasionally, swap back to google using bangs because I had to unlearn all the hacks I had to make Google turn up useful things. Now I can't go back, Google is unsable without those hacks. Its barely usable with them.

Plus Kagi has a "fediverse forum" lens that lets me search Lemmy much more effectively than Lemmy's search.

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[-] millie@beehaw.org 19 points 7 months ago

Okay, but it doesn't know where I am. When I type 'dunkin', Google doesn't just know I want hours for a dunkin donuts, it knows which two or three stores I'm probably looking at hours for and it does it without me having to specify.

If I'm looking stuff up on my phone or just want a quick answer, I actually do want the context of all that data on me. I like that when I type the word 'glamour' it knows I'm probably thinking of the bard subclass, and that when I type 'Conan' it knows I probably mean Exiles, not O'Brien. I mean like, I know it doesn't know these things, but it fills in that gap much faster.

I do like the way their search is layed out for doing something more complex, though. It really is a better designed search engine, but I feel like a search engine is the one place I want data collection of some kind, literally because it benefits me.

[-] mozz@mbin.grits.dev 6 points 7 months ago
  1. On Kagi you type ‘Dunkin’ and then click ‘maps’
  2. I want to see a screenshot of your ‘glamour’ and ‘Conan’ searches working the way you’re describing
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[-] Zworf@beehaw.org 16 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

10 bucks is too much though for a search engine, at least for me. Especially now that I use LLMs to replace most of the usecases of web searches.

I never used Google much anyway the last few years, I use duckduckgo which isn't quite as bad as google is now. Yeah I know it's just microsoft bling with a lick of paint but they didn't enshittify as much as google. But $10 + VAT is just a lot of money in Spain.

Maybe I'll try the $5 plan though, I never come even close to 300 searches a month anyway.

Edit: SearXNG sounds much better actually, thanks!! <3

Edit2: I installed SearXNG and love it <3 Really thanks for the tips here.

[-] greysemanticist@lemmy.one 5 points 7 months ago

This is a useful take: I too will use LLMs for search-- but not for search for journal articles with data and evidence. LLMs too easily confabulate these.

LLM-as-search is fantastic when you want a no-bullshit statistical result for what you're looking for when you're wanting an overview or interactive tutorial.

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[-] thejevans@lemmy.ml 9 points 7 months ago

I use Kagi, stract, and a self-hosted searx-ng instance. Kagi is so well polished that it's what I use most of the time, but I keep an eye on the other two and continually ask myself if I'm ready to drop Kagi to get away from financially supporting Google and Microsoft.

[-] anothermember@lemmy.zip 9 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Remember the first time you used Google search? It was like magic. After years of progressively worsening search quality from Altavista and Yahoo, Google was literally stunning, a gateway to the very best things on the internet.

No, I'm not having that! That's rewriting of history. I remember when Google came out, it was pretty much as good as Altavista and no more. It had the additional appeal that it looked (for the time) unique and fresh and had a weird name, I remember getting my friends to try this "weird new search engine that might someday beat Altavista" but it never revolutionised anything in terms of search results at the time.

Also Altavista was not getting progressively worse, I still remember the days when you could type a simple dictionary word into a search engine and have it return 0 results. Altavista is what changed that, not Google.

[-] bitwolf@lemmy.one 6 points 7 months ago

I remember the competition on speed. And Google publishing the response time on the results page as a way to showcase it's speed over the competitors.

[-] Ilandar@aussie.zone 9 points 7 months ago

No matter how many times people claim "X search engine" is universally better than Google, it has just never been true in my experience. And this is coming from someone who puts up with the frustrations of other search engines to avoid Google's data harvesting. Like Google's search engine can have rapidly deteriorated and still be miles better than the competition. Both can be true, but people always seem to act like the SEO spam has made it unusable and that is just not reality at all.

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[-] HelixDab2@lemm.ee 8 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Requires a log-in. That means that there's absolutely no way to anonymize your searches. At least if I want to do an anonymous search, I can open my laptop, boot up in Tails, and search DDG on Tor. With a required log-in (and billing that presumably doesn't include a Monero option), you can't make that work.

Pass.

[-] Atemu@lemmy.ml 6 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Whether this is bad depends on your threat model. Additionally, you must also consider that other search engines are able to easily identify you without you explicitly identifying yourself. If you can't fool https://abrahamjuliot.github.io/creepjs/, you certainly can't fool Google for instance. And that's even ignoring the immense identifying potential of user behaviour.

Billing supports OpenNode AFAICT which I guess you could funnel your Moneros through but meh.

Edit: Phrasing.

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[-] bloup@lemmy.sdf.org 8 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

I personally have not found Kagi’s default search results to be all that impressive, contrary to what most users seem to feel. I don’t know. When ddg and Google fail me, I will try Kagi and I think maybe only once or twice has it actually made finding what I’m looking for any easier.

I will mention though, you can do a lot of personalization on the results unlike other engines. So maybe if I took the time to customize, I might feel differently.

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[-] vhstape@lemmy.sdf.org 8 points 7 months ago

My issue with Kagi is that it relies on aggregate results from other search engine indices

[-] Bishma@discuss.tchncs.de 9 points 7 months ago

So do DDG and a lot of other search engines. In addition to the time and cost of running a spider and maintaining a database (for little to no technological benefit these days), a lot of server admins will block crawlers that aren't googlebot or msnbot/bingbot.

[-] Dark_Arc@social.packetloss.gg 7 points 7 months ago

It has its own index in addition to aggregating results.

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[-] some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org 6 points 7 months ago

I've wanted to test out Kagi for some time, but I don't really do a hell of a lot of deep-dive searches anymore. I mostly passively read a combination of RSS, stuff I see on Lemmy, and videos that I still watch on the old site while not logged in. And some YouTube stuff.

When I do search for something, it's typically something that I hear about in a podcast and I wanna know more and in the moment I just use my default (goog). I'm not thinking of Kagi cause I'm listening to something already and thinking about that.

[-] darkphotonstudio@beehaw.org 5 points 7 months ago

Cory Doctorow is a smart guy, and has some great takes. But he also pays for Xitter Blue (or whatever they call it) so do with that info what you will.

[-] mozz@mbin.grits.dev 23 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

What are you talking about, I don't see any tick. Are you talking about the big text that says "NONCONSENSUAL BLUE TICK"?

Maybe I am missing something but it kinda looks like Lemmy is engaging once again in a favorite activity, finding reasons why someone is "problematic" whether true or not, because that's more fun than just engaging in reasonable posting and commenting and letting people be worth listening to sometimes

[-] drwho@beehaw.org 6 points 7 months ago

That's pretty much the entire Internet these days.

[-] mozz@mbin.grits.dev 5 points 7 months ago

It's honestly very perplexing to me

Like why did 5 people upvote just pure combative nonsense. What did they see in it that led them to say "yeah this resonates with me, fuck this guy for objectively false reasons! I support this message!"

It's just confusing

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[-] wahming@monyet.cc 10 points 7 months ago

Source? I find that doubtful considering his nick is "Cory Doctorow NONCONSENSUAL BLUE TICK"

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this post was submitted on 05 Apr 2024
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