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[-] Idliketothinkimsmart@lemmygrad.ml 29 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

For anyone whose really interested in what Becker said, go to the 1 hour and 24 minute mark and watch the whole section. Becker never says that he's opposed to multipolarity, but that multipolarity as an end all be all is not what socialists should strive for. He asks the question "How can we make radical change in America by saying 'Vladimir Putin is our leader?', which is a very salient point. He goes on to say that we should strive for socialist leadership in all of our countries. What is so off about that? Seriously?

The point about the WW1 and multipolarity is making the point that multipolarity alone doesn't end war. Multipolarity between capitalist powers is still destructive.

Rainer Shead is really good at finding convenient quotes from revolutionaries and diluting it to hell and back. He cites Kim il Sung saying “The differences of state socio-political systems, political views or religious beliefs can by no means be an obstacle in the way of joint struggle against U.S. imperialism”, but just thinking about it for like 20 seconds, this obviously wouldn't mean supporting reactionary states against the US for the pure sake of it. Would Kim il Sung have supported Hitler? Obviously not.

This dude misses so often.

[-] thefreepenguinalt@lemmygrad.ml 20 points 1 year ago

Becker: has a based take on multipolarity
Z-posters: durrrr russia good

[-] cucumovirus@lemmygrad.ml 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

He asks the question "How can we make radical change in America by saying ‘Vladimir Putin is our leader?’, which is a very salient point. He goes on to say that we should strive for socialist leadership in all of our countries. What is so off about that? Seriously?

Nothing is wrong with that in general, but who is he saying it to? Who are these people that only want multipolarity and simp for Putin? His call for socialism is good, but ignores the material reality of today's world in which new socialist construction is not possible without first the decline of US hegemony.

I don't like Shea and think he's quite problematic, but your comment about what Kim is saying is, I think, not a good portrayal.

but just thinking about it for like 20 seconds, this obviously wouldn’t mean supporting reactionary states against the US for the pure sake of it. Would Kim il Sung have supported Hitler? Obviously not.

The USSR and China did ally with other capitalist and imperialist forces against Japan and Germany in WW2. And today's world is largely split into two camps - the US and China. Critical support given to Russia (which while being reactionary still currently plays a progressive role globally in the struggle against US hegemony and is allied to the world's socialist countries, though only out of necessity) is not the same as "supporting Hitler". Putin and Russia today are not equivalent to Hitler and Nazi Germany.

As Losurdo puts it:

we can speak of a struggle against a new colonial counter-revolution. We can speak of a struggle between the imperialist and colonialist powers — principally the United States — on the one side, and on the other we have China and the third world. Russia is an integral part of this greater third world, because it was in danger of becoming a colony of the West.

[-] freagle@lemmygrad.ml 12 points 1 year ago

Brian Becker and the PSL critically support Russia. Shea takes the critical part and makes it seem like Becker is a "Russia bad" commentator. He's not. Don't listen to Shea talk about Becker. Listen to Becker directly and form your own opinion. When you do, you'll see Shea is dangerous.

[-] SovereignState@lemmygrad.ml 16 points 1 year ago

I do not totally dismiss much of Shea's writing, yet this is wrecker behavior. Anyone who listens to what PSL is actually saying knows they are not against multipolarity, they're the only prominent Amerikan communist organization even tackling its importance!

[-] cucumovirus@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 1 year ago

I don't take anything Shea says at face value. I've listened to the part of the interview in question and find Becker's answers to be weird and contradictory. As I've explained in another comment, he answers the question “is it good that unipolarity has been challenged?” and his answer is in essence no because it seems like he just argues against some multipolarity in general without considering the material reality of today’s world split into the west and the rest (with China on top). His answer implies that today’s multipolarity is like that of pre-WW1 which is in contradiction with his stance in general.

[-] freagle@lemmygrad.ml 10 points 1 year ago

He's answering the question. Multipolarity, in a vacuum, does not immediately lead to socialism. Socialism must be present along with multipolarity.

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I'm currently on the move so I can't currently give more lengthy response, but these are the people. There's a growing right wing opposition to NATO, which now, might seem insignificant, but as the war drags longer and longer?

The US knows it can't drag the war on in perpetuity, and if support falls come time for the next election, this puts Democrats in a dangerous and weakened position.

I'd be interested to see what instances you're referring to in terms of the SU and China allying with other imperialist forces. The instances I can think, such as the Molotov Ribbentrop pact we'rent so much allying as it was a stalemate that allowed the SU to gather up it's arms. Even then, the SU ended up going to war against those same forces, which points to the reality points to how alliances with reactionary forces is ultimately short lived and can be dangerous.

I do think that Russia plays a progressive tole in today's landscape, but that's different than expecting Putin to liberate us from NATO.

[-] cucumovirus@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 1 year ago

There’s a growing right wing opposition to NATO

But that's not actual opposition to NATO or US wars in general. They are just opposing what the democrats are currently doing until they get elected again. These people very much want and are working towards US hegemony and open war with China, not just this proxy war against Russia. They do not want multipolarity and their appeals to Putin don't really mean anything. They're just part of a larger effort to be as contrarian as possible to the current democrat positions in public, while actually pursuing largely the same foreign policy as the democrats. There's also the factor of Trump "being friends" or whatever with Putin which is nonsense, but the republicans seem to like spreading that, if nothing else, just to piss off the democrats.

this puts Democrats in a dangerous and weakened position.

I don't really care what kind of position the democrats are in and neither should you. Both parties have the same imperialist and hegemonic policy and serve military-industrial, and other large corporation's shareholders' interests. The dems are not better than the republicans, and the US elections don't really decide anything. No one in the US should be allying with democrats (or republicans or relying on elections) and expecting achieve any sort of meaningful anti-imperialist changes.

I’d be interested to see what instances you’re referring to in terms of the SU and China allying with other imperialist forces.

I'm not talking about the Molotov–Ribbentrop pact, that wasn't an act of allyship. I'm talking about the larger picture of WW2 in general. The USSR, along with the UK and US fought the Nazis in Europe, and the communists in China formed temporary alliances with capitalist/feudalist forces which were funded by US imperialists to fight against Japan.

expecting Putin to liberate us from NATO

Again, my point is that no one is actually expecting this. Maybe a few fringe voices, but its far from a real position taken by people.

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[-] freagle@lemmygrad.ml 26 points 1 year ago

Rainer is a shill. Anyone who's been listening to the PSL and to Becker's analyses knows that Becker is not against multipolarity. Becker's position is summed it quite well in the quotations Rainer pulls out of context - multipolarity is not a solution, only socialism is a solution.

The interpretation Rainer applies to the words of Becker are bald-faced bad faith interpretation. Becker is being quoted literally as saying that China and Russia are not looking to replace the US as the new global hegemon. Becker doesn't disavow multipolarity, nor does he state it should be resisted. Martin's quotation, which echoes Becker's analyses from other contexts, is that Russia isn't communist and in fact may even be anti-communist, and there are other countries in BRICS that are also anti-communist domestically. We must be vigilant there. Becker's position on Russia is measured - the US is at fault and also war is hell. We don't need to revel in bloodshed to have a multipolar analysis, nor do we need to defend Russia as a pure beacon of hope in order to understand the historical context that led to the now-escalating conflict nor to understand a Russian victory as the only outcome that will support socialism, a position that Becker has reiterated for years.

Rainer selects quottations from Becker and Becker's work that demonstrate Becker's position and instead of using them to establish a consistent reading of the PSL's position uses them to make a contradiction where none exists. First, Rainer assumes that the measured and nuanced position on Russia means Becker/PSL is anti-multipolarity, believes Russia and China are imperialist, and that the PSL is PatSoc. Then, Rainer selects quotations from the PSL and from Becker that disprove his own assumptions, but he frames that as "see how inconsistent these people are, they are disproving their own thesis".

I don't know what game Rainer is playing and who's paying him, but he's completely lost my trust in every single substack article I've ever read from him. He completely misrepresents the PSL and Becker and uses modern "journalistic" techniques like a strong propagandist does. Reports some facts, misinterprets those facts but frames the interpretation as fact not opinion, then reasons from there to a conclusion that is completely and obviously untenable, with the only goal of leaving the reader with an impression about the ideology of a third party.

If you read this particular piece, the only logical conclusion from the perspective of the author is that 100% of what has been said by the Russian government must be taken as pure unadulterated fact and that any attempt at interpreting the situation beyond that is equivalent to opposition of Russia. Every single serious communist treats the words of any government as propaganda, and as such, always takes a nuanced approach to interpretation. Rainer does not seem to even acknowledge this as a possibility, yet clearly demonstrates the capability by applying a nuanced interpretation of Becker and the PSL.

AFAIK, Rainer is a wrecker and a spoiler. He may be an op. He may just be a PatSoc looking to undermine the PSL so that something more vile can fill the void. My money is on him being an op.

I highly recommend you all listen to Becker's podcast (The Socialist Program) and listen specifically to the episodes on Ukraine and on Multipolarity and come to your own conclusions. And if you find that my assessment of Becker is a reasonable one, I would highly recommend putting up shields whenever Rainer's work comes through. From my perspective it's getting bad enough that I think we need to really consider as a community where we are going to limit how Rainer's work comes through here. I fear that amplifying and propagating his work is dangerously anti-communist.

[-] Idliketothinkimsmart@lemmygrad.ml 15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Shea is such a bad faith op, I'm not even sure why people take him seriously. Another funny thing that I saw in the article was that he quoted Becker saying "what we need is the multipolar world.’…as a Leninist" when Becker says in the full interview "as a marxist leninist". It's literally ONE WORD that he chose to editorialize out. Why would he do this? I don't know...

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[-] libscratcher@lemmygrad.ml 25 points 1 year ago

Rainer Shea is a patriotic socialist who made a hard turn to condemning the PSL at every opportunity after they failed to support his "anti-war" rally with Tulsi Gabbard, Jackson Hinckle, and the Libertarian Party USA.

Brian Becker is one of the most principled communist leaders in the west, and is so frequently portrayed as a "Russian asset" by liberals that the underlap with Rainer's claim here is just funny.

[-] ssfckdt@mastodon.cloud 10 points 1 year ago

That sounds like some red brown shit

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[-] cucumovirus@lemmygrad.ml 17 points 1 year ago

Multipolarity is coming simply as a part of the historical process of our development - just like feudalism emerged, then capitalism, then imperialism, etc. Empires also come and go and in their wake other countries rise - we have seen this numerous times throughout history. Yet it seems like these socialist anti-multipolarity people think we can stop these processes just by the actions of a few individuals or small groups. Not to mention the straw man argument presented where we apparently just want multipolar capitalism as an end goal and nothing else. Yes, all of us would prefer if every state just turned socialist right away, but that is not physically possible. We have to work with what we are given, and currently that's multipolarity.

[-] Life2Space@lemmygrad.ml 17 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Multipolarity is definitely something that communists should support. Of course, it's not the end goal, but it is a necessary step to take in order to dismantle USD hegemony and allow all nations to liberate themselves from debt traps.

[-] WaterBowlSlime@lemmygrad.ml 18 points 1 year ago

The point Becker was making is that multipolarity in and of itself isn't going to end capitalism. Only socialism can do that. Multipolarity between capitalist countries gave us two world wars.

[-] Life2Space@lemmygrad.ml 13 points 1 year ago

I believe that's what I stated. Multipolarity isn't the end goal, which is global communism; but, it is a necessary step to take in order to reach that goal given the cards we are dealt with.

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[-] reazonozaer@lemmygrad.ml 15 points 1 year ago

He took an exchange that probably took 2-3 minutes out of a nearly two hour long interview, and then I guess mind read the rest of his article out of that. Not worth taking seriously.

[-] Kultronx@lemmygrad.ml 14 points 1 year ago

Hard pass. I 100% support Brian Becker more than this doofus

[-] CannotSleep420@lemmygrad.ml 11 points 1 year ago

Rhainer Shea (rightfully) gets a lot of shit here, but I don't expect this particular take to cause a lot of infighting.

[-] freagle@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 1 year ago

This particular take is dog shit. Shea is writing in bad faith

[-] CannotSleep420@lemmygrad.ml 7 points 1 year ago

I made this comment before you made your breakdown, and at that I had only skimmed the article. Now that I've seen what you wrote in another thread, I can see that his wrecking goes beyond bad takes on settler colonialism.

[-] Raul@lemmygrad.ml 10 points 1 year ago

Substack hustlers playing armchair general since their early pandemic radicalization. Now writing about grand chessboard geopolitical multipolar line struggle.

[-] ksynwa@lemmygrad.ml 7 points 1 year ago

we had a multipolar world all the way up until world war II, what did it bring us? The multipolar world brought us World War I, the multipolar world brought us World War II

I cannot believe PSL's cofounder is equating competition between colonial empires to USA trying to subjugate Russia and China.

[-] o_d@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 1 year ago

Or that he's trying to push this narrative that the post WWII world was not multipolar. The only reason a US middle class was ever even allowed to exist.

Go to the 1 hour and 24 minute mark of the interview, that's NOT what he's saying. View my other comment.

[-] ksynwa@lemmygrad.ml 12 points 1 year ago

Tbh this is on me. I should have known that a Rage Against the War Machine guy will never have a normal and good faith take.

I don't keep up with American left political developments so it never occurred to me that people use multipolarity was a springboard for Putin worshipping.

[-] Idliketothinkimsmart@lemmygrad.ml 11 points 1 year ago

The putin worshipping stuff is less of a development on the left imo, but something you see growing in the rightwing camp. There's a PSL article about the similarities between the "America First" chauvinism prior to WW1 and the similarities between the same right wing opposition to NATO currently.

Shea sometimes reads like a straight up CNN article the way he editorializes 😂

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this post was submitted on 17 Jul 2023
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