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submitted 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) by solo@kbin.earth to c/climate@slrpnk.net

A realistic understanding of their costs and risks is critical.

What are SMRs?

  1. SMRs are not more economical than large reactors.

  2. SMRs are not generally safer or more secure than large light-water reactors.

  3. SMRs will not reduce the problem of what to do with radioactive waste.

  4. SMRs cannot be counted on to provide reliable and resilient off-the-grid power for facilities, such as data centers, bitcoin mining, hydrogen or petrochemical production.

  5. SMRs do not use fuel more efficiently than large reactors.

[Edit: If people have links that contradict any the above, could you please share in the comment section?]

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[-] Warl0k3@lemmy.world 93 points 5 months ago

While clearly biased and theres some wording and cherrypicking of studies (that isn't very egregious, to be clear!) that I'd take issue with in a more formal setting, the content of the article thru to point two are really quite an alright summary of the issues and raises some very valid questions the industry has yet to answer.

However it throws itself off the credibility cliff riiiiiight around this point:

In any event, regulators are loosening safety and security requirements for SMRs in ways which could cancel out any safety benefits from passive features. For example, the NRC has approved rules and procedures in recent years that provide regulatory pathways for exempting new reactors, including SMRs, from many of the protective measures that it requires for operating plants, such as a physical containment structure, an offsite emergency evacuation plan, and an exclusion zone that separates the plant from densely populated areas. It is also considering further changes that could allow SMRs to reduce the numbers of armed security personnel to protect them from terrorist attacks and highly trained operators to run them. Reducing security at SMRs is particularly worrisome, because even the safest reactors could effectively become dangerous radiological weapons if they are sabotaged by skilled attackers. Even passive safety mechanisms could be deliberately disabled.

What in the fearmongering fuck is this? "Oh no, terrorists!" And it's debunked on the first page of one of its own sources. Regulators have NOT put any pathways in place to "exempt SMRs from many of the protective measures." If you read the sources, what they have done is put in place guidelines for the evaluation of the current measures, to judge if those measures merit being re-evaluated. Its a path for a path to judge if maybe we should have a path.

And fucking hell, yes of course they would have smaller security contingents, the installations are physically smaller! There's less to guard! Thats in no small part the point!

Look there are a lot of problems with SMRs and even more questions we just don't have answers for yet. Those questions need answers before any progress can be made with SMRs. The benefits of lower transmission losses, dedicated power generation for industrial complexes being at all beneficial, or remotely finalized designs for the reactor technology needed here are all MASSIVE outstanding issues that have yet to be solved.

But this shit? "we cant have this source of green energy because terrorists!!!"

Fuck off with that.

There are more than enough issues with SMRs to justify extreme skepticism, hell microsoft wanting a bunch is probably reason enough to abandon the whole concept. We dont need to stoop to disinformation and blatant lies, what the fuck. This is why "nuclear bros" (Which great idea, lets "other" the critics, that's not a red flag at all...) get so much traction, because they dont stoop to conspiracy theory tropes to support their arguments.

[-] Fermion@mander.xyz 39 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

There's so many people paranoid about the remote possibility of dirty bombs. Meanwhile, Norfolk Southern is actually spilling tankers full of toxic chemicals that get set on fire by being incredibly negligent.

If terrorists did want to poison an area, there's plenty of insanely toxic and commercially available compounds to choose from. The fixation on nuclear fuel is an indicator of someone who is just repeating a ghost story and doesn't actually know/care what the biggest sources of danger are.

[-] AnonStoleMyPants@sopuli.xyz 4 points 5 months ago

Though to be fair, using dirty bombs or radioactive material has waaaaay larger "fear" factor than a random chemical that kills just as well.

[-] huginn@feddit.it 19 points 5 months ago

There are plenty of good arguments against SMRs: none of them include terrorism.

The theory was always that you could get economies of scale if you were building the same reactor every time in a factory and transporting it to install somewhere else. In practice those economies never materialized (did they even exist?)

Meanwhile solar, wind, and batteries have plummeted in cost. There is no need for base load power generation if we have sufficient battery storage and an oversupply of generators - which is entirely feasible for wind and solar.

[-] Warl0k3@lemmy.world 9 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

I'm sorry, I think you may not be using 'baseload' correctly. We will absolutely always have to meet the requirements for baseload power generation, otherwise we aren't making enough power and we will have brownouts.

If what you meant was that a grid relying on solar and wind for primary generation and supplemented with battery facilities can make up the deficit at night/on calm days, then while that would be ideal it is extremely unlikely to happen in the next several decades. Battery technology is not anywhere near ready for this solution, and while ESS are making extremely impressive advances, they are such a new technology that it would be intellectually dishonest for me to list their shortcomings here. They are simply too new to know which problems are inherent to the concept, and which are due simply to flawed engineering of a new technology.

For matters of logistics, a few large generating sources linked together are much more desirable than a distributed network. In fact the issue with economies of scale in power generation is one of the arguments against SMRs made by the above linked article's author. One of the biggest concerns with truly distributed power generation is safety - namely, how can you safely work on a downed line when every single house has the independent capacity to energize the lines? But those large power generating stations run into the same issue that SMRs are in vogue to solve; what do we do about crypto miners ~~besides grinding them all up into dog food, which gets my vote.~~ Their drain, and those of industry and data centers and so on, on local power infrastructure remains despite the source of the power in the system.

[-] silence7@slrpnk.net 8 points 5 months ago

At temperate latitudes, you can actually get something like 95% of the way there using wind, solar, and reasonable amounts of storage in addition to existing hydropower.

This leaves a fairly small chunk which needs either long-duration storage or firm generation. Nuclear might be able to fill part of that, but only if it comes in at a lower price than currently seems likely. Other technologies, such as induced geothermal and sodium-ion flow batteries are a lot more likely-looking right now.

[-] Warl0k3@lemmy.world 4 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Yes, exactly! Err, but I'm not sure where the 'actually' comes in. It looks like we're agreeing. Am I misunderstanding? I can try to be a little bit more belligerent if that would help! This is internet commenting, we're supposed to be at each other's throats by this point in the comment chain....

While battery technology is making grand strides, it's my understanding that we're not to a point where we can even speculate on how to renovate our entire grid with them for a vast host of reasons. Using them to cover while switching to other higher-capacity ESSs seems to be the role they are best suited for, and outside of a few experimental exceptions that looks like the role they're stepping into in the current industry. I have high hopes for the future, but we still have a long way to go, especially in longevity. I'm not advocating for SMRs nor expansion of nuclear, solar or wind, just that we should not limit ourselves to considering a subset of our options because of ideological beliefs.

(And I'm sorry, but I have no idea what induced geothermal is. Sounds potentially volcano-y though, so that's always a plus in my book.)

(I don't really see any possible downsides to giving IBM a small nuclear reactor. They seem so nice.)

[-] huginn@feddit.it 5 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

No need for power generation dedicated to the base load.

Nuclear power generation is base load only: it does not full the role of a peaker.

Battery + renewable technology is already the primary source of power on many grids and the trend continues accelerating in that direction.

[-] Warl0k3@lemmy.world 1 points 5 months ago

I'm really sorry to do this again, but did you mean tribes?

[-] huginn@feddit.it 4 points 5 months ago

Grids*

Ducking autocorrect

[-] Dippy@beehaw.org 19 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

The economic advantage of SMRs is that when you make reactors in a location, the 1st is always more expensive than any following reactors. Just a reality of construction, permits, designs, etc. So if you have 4 reactors in one place, that's pretty nice. They also have the advantage of being able to turn one off for maintenance and then having 2, 3, 4 other reactors in the same vicinity that can pick up the slack for the duration.

As for waste, yeah it's the same problem. But it's important to note that the volume of material is not that big. The entire volume produced by all us nuke energy ever takes up a football field stacked 10 yards high. All told, that's a smaller problem than I ever thought.

I'm not a big nuclear advocate, I'm pretty mid on it. This is where I got all of the above information, an interview with the head of the US DOE loan program https://www.volts.wtf/p/nuclear-perhaps?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web

[-] BeardedGingerWonder@feddit.uk 6 points 5 months ago

The nice thing about nuclear waste is that it kind of just sorts itself out too. I half suspect not knowing what to do with it and kicking the can down the road is sort of the whole point. Nominally it's pretty easy to deal with nuclear waste, you seal it up somewhere and leave it to not be radioactive any more. The problem is it takes a long time, and we don't really know how to communicate to anyone 1000 years in the future "there's nuclear waste here, stay the fuck away". Making sure it's an active topic for discussion kind of keeps it at the forefront and means it's not forgotten about.

[-] Dippy@beehaw.org 9 points 5 months ago

I also learned in that interview that after a relatively short period, the aggressive decay is over and you're left with a barrel of waste that isn't actually shooting off radiation very often.

[-] sonori@beehaw.org 1 points 5 months ago

Except that is hardly unique to nuclear waste. A wide variety of industrial processes produce high grade chemical waste, especially electronics like computers, solar panels, and inverters. This is just as deadly as any nuclear waste, and if stumbled upon will kill just as quickly in a hundred years, a thousand years, million years, or a billion years.

There is however a well established solution to this problem, and that is making sure the government knows what and where it is as well as that someone it monitoring and securing the site. The actual chemical makeup of the stuff that kills you doesn’t actually matter all that much compared to makeing sure it stays where it’s supposed to be.

[-] oyo@lemm.ee 3 points 5 months ago

You uh... want to give a single example of solar panel manufacturing waste that is as deadly as nuclear waste in a thousand years?

Humanity has never built anything that has intentionally lasted 10,000 years, much less 250,000.

It's the height of arrogance to think your society will last a thousand times longer than any in the history of the world.

[-] sonori@beehaw.org 2 points 5 months ago

Arsenic, mercury, gallium, tellurium, and cadmium are all heavy metal waste products produced in quantity for semiconductor manufacturing, are commonly landfilled, pose extreme risk to human health if they ever managed to leach out of the landfill and into a aquifer, and being heavy metals have no non-nuclear method of decay. Given the primary risk of high grade nuclear is also that it is made up of toxic hevey metals that might be dangerous if lost to the local aquifer, it seems fair to compare the two.

Semiconductor manufacturing also makes heavy use of PFAS materials, which while less directly dangerous to human health still do end up measurably entering and contamating the environment through plant wastewater streams. Once in the environment, these also tend to last for between six hundred to a thousand years before being broken down or sequestered.

I don’t think my society will last a hundreds of thousands of years, but i’m pretty sure a society of people in the area will, and if not, then it isn’t a problem because evidently there is evidently no one around to harm. Structures like landfill barriers are not likely to last that long on their own, and as such it falls on people to renew and maintain them for as long as there are people around anyway. Hence why it is imperative that the local government knows about and monitors the site.

All of this is true regardless of which specific heavy metal or acid is stored at the site, though given the small quantity of nuclear waste makes up of similarly harmful industrial wastes it is going to be easier to manage on that face alone.

Obviously humanity hasn’t made anything that lasted tens of thousands of years, we weren’t building anything significant tens of thousands of years ago. We do however have plenty of local governments and buildings that have lasted thousands of years, and which are probably not going anywhere anytime soon.

[-] burgersc12@mander.xyz 1 points 5 months ago

I get your point, but Gobleki Tepe was built ~11,000 years ago, so we have built things meant to last tens of thousands of years.

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[-] solo@kbin.earth 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Thank you for sharing this link. It was very interesting listening to someone from within the US that is head of an office now and started from Shell Solar.

There is a reasoning that I didn't get. Maybe I misunderstood something or I lack some information/knowledge. Anyways, here it is:

At 1:02 they talks about nuclear waste saying that all the nuclear waste produced in the US by the nuclear power plants is like a football field that is 10 yards tall and then he talks about why this waste is not concerning.

Later at 1:07 He mentions that the US is not reprocesing the uranium fuel rods, in which 95% of the energy is still there, and that the US should do reprocessing like other countries do.

Doesn't that mean that these unprocessed rods in the US that are in the "football field of nuclear waste" are therefore a concern?

[-] Dippy@beehaw.org 4 points 5 months ago

So energy remaining and radioactivity are separate. The isotope that it becomes has a decently long half life, but it might only be a few protons or neutrons away from something really radioactive.

I do believe that the fuel rods count towards that pile of waste. I think the US has laws or rules that make it hard or impossible to recycle these back into the good stuff, but it's very doable. France does it to a high degree.

[-] solo@kbin.earth 4 points 5 months ago

Thank you for taking the time to reply. I think I kinda understand what you say but I have more reading to do. Currently I'm on some relevant wiki pages trying to get a better understanding [Spent nuclear fuel, Radioactive waste, Long-lived fission product].

In case you (or anyone) have any other links to suggest, please do not hesitate.

[-] Dippy@beehaw.org 5 points 5 months ago

Damn this website is so much better than reddit

[-] dev_null@lemmy.ml 15 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

I know nothing on the topic, but the points you raise don't seem relevant to me?

SMRs are not more economical than large reactors.

Yeah, economies of scale mean small things are generally less efficient than big things. This is a criticism of local power generation that applies just as well to wind turbines for example. Nothing to do with this idea really.

SMRs are not generally safer or more secure than large light-water reactors.

Why would anyone expect large power plants to be less safe than this? I'd expect the technology in both to be safe. Tell me if this is safe or not, not if it's "safer" than large power plants on some ambiguous scale. Rooftop solar is also less safe than commercial solar power plants just due to being located near someone's living space, but it's a useless relative comparison.

SMRs will not reduce the problem of what to do with radioactive waste.

That one is the only valid point to me.

SMRs cannot be counted on to provide reliable and resilient off-the-grid power for facilities, such as data centers, bitcoin mining, hydrogen or petrochemical production.

Why not? Seems like they would.

SMRs do not use fuel more efficiently than large reactors.

This is just a repeat of the first point.

Again, I know nothing on this and don't have an opinion either way. I'm pointing out this seems to be a criticism but only one of the 5 points seems to actually criticize this.

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[-] perestroika@slrpnk.net 9 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

I think the EU Commission has done a fairly good job of listing the pros and contras of small modular reactors:

https://energy.ec.europa.eu/topics/nuclear-energy/small-modular-reactors/small-modular-reactors-explained_en

They have some advantages over conventional (large) reactors in the following areas:

  • if they are serially manufactured without design chances, manufacturing is more efficient than big unique projects
  • you can choose a site with less cooling water
  • you can choose a site where a fossil-burning plant used to be (grid elements for a power plant are present) but a renewable power plant may not be feasible
  • some of them can be safer, due to a higher ratio of coolant per fuel, and a lower need for active cooling*

Explanation: even a shut down NPP needs cooling, but bigger ones need non-trivial amounts of energy, for example the 5700 MW plant in Zaporizhya in the middle of a war zone needs about 50 MW of power just to safely stay offline, which is why people have been fairly concerned about it. For comparison, a 300 MW micro-reactor brought to its lowest possible power level might be safe without external energy, or a minimal amount of external energy (which could be supplied by an off-the-shelf diesel generator available to every rescue department).

The overview of the Commission mentions:

SMRs have passive (inherent) safety systems, with a simpler design, a reactor core with lower core power and larger fractions of coolant. These altogether increase significantly the time allowed for operators to react in case of incidents or accidents.

I don't think they will offer economical advantages over renewable power. Some amont of SMRs might however be called for to have a long-term steerable component in the power grid.

[-] Landsharkgun@midwest.social 6 points 5 months ago

None of these points are relevant. Nobody is selling SMRs as better than large-scale plants (at least I hope they're not). The point of SMRs is that they are much easier to bring in and put down. A huge portion of the world still runs on fossil fuels, often with frequent brownouts or scheduled blackouts. Being able to bring in a RELIABLE non-fossil fuel power plant at a smaller scale would be huge. Distributed solar has some pretty awesome potential for individual households if you don't care about on- demand power, but you do eventually need something for your denser cities etc.

[-] Wahots@pawb.social 5 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

All these are kinda no brainers, lol. I think we are still going to need nuclear as a baseload power supply where hydro doesn't work because it's too dry or flat. We gotta get off "clean coal" and "natural gas" as baseload power. I like sodium reactors and advanced, non-light water designs. Light water has become a political hot potato even though it is far safer than coal plants in terms of number of people hurt or killed by emissions.

As the coal and gas industry has done, advanced designs will need new names like "natural rock" to distance themselves from negative connotations.

[-] Hugohase@startrek.website 5 points 5 months ago

Put as much money into the research of SMRs as you would like to waste. Meanwhile we just build a cheaper, better and more reliable system based on renewables.

This will happen with or without the nukebro hypetrain.

[-] solo@kbin.earth 4 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

My personal stance is that sustainability cannot be achieved within capitalism due to its model of eternal growth. We can have one or the other, but not both.

So creating more energy could not be the solution. Creating less demand would be, and the demand comes from industries.

More often than not, I it seems to me this discussion about clean energy is a deflection of the real problem which is industrialisation under capitalism. We don't question anymore what this energy is needed for.

[-] mynachmadarch@kbin.social 8 points 5 months ago

Good news then, Microsoft is building a new multibillion dollar AI facility which will ratchet up power demands alongside the increase in power demands for crypto. Oh wait, I said good news. Uhh....

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[-] anonymous111@lemmy.world 4 points 5 months ago

I though the use case was that these reactors can be mass produced in a factory and not require large scale infrastructure projects?

I appreciate this hasn't been proven but comparing apples with oranges seems odd.

[-] baru@lemmy.world 3 points 5 months ago

I though the use case was that these reactors can be mass produced in a factory and not require large scale infrastructure projects?

The mass production takes time to build up. It takes time to get experience. I've read various articles around SMRs. For at least the first 9 there will not be any mass production. It'll be very costly.

Usually production improves as more is produced. Possibly it improves by the experience gained, possibly by a new factory.

It'll not be immediately cheap and mass produced. While that is often claimed for SMRs.

As small ones aren't as efficient, it'll be more costly per kWh. That it'll be cheaper than regular nuclear power seems mostly wishful thinking.

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this post was submitted on 17 May 2024
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