green

joined 3 weeks ago
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This is a common question. However, it is poorly phrased.

What does it mean to be sustainable? And is this definition agreed upon? This reflection often kills any chance of productive conversation because people tend to not want to waste time (see academia).

So I'd like to ask other questions instead, with some analysis; and am requesting for comments to improve the state of online communities.


From this point forward, when I say "sustainable", I mean:

  • content MAY be shared.

There is no requirement for people in a community to participate. There is also no requirement for a community to share content with (non-)participants. This allows for communities to implement tit-for-tat to combat leeches, if need be. It also allows for individuals to implement tit-for-tat to combat bad-faith actors, if need be.

  • content MUST NOT be revoked.

Once shared, content must not be censored, edited, locked, removed, nor re-shared. In other words, no revoking of shared content in any way. This closes the door to many avenues of community abuse.

  • free labor is NOT needed.

A community cannot survive in a productive form if it requires free labor to exist. People need food to survive, and can move on to new ventures. If there is not an system to promptly replace community leaders and resources, the system will be compromised. Managing your own content is NOT free labor.

  • moderation MUST NOT take more steps than it took to engage.

If I make one comment, it should take no more than one command to moderate the entire comment. If I make three comments, it should take no more than three commands to moderate all of them.

  • new users MUST NOT be discriminated against.

Any method which uses account age, or any metric directly related to account age (i.e karma), must not be used - under any circumstance. It cannot be understated how fast this will kill a productive community. If moderation is needed, seek other methods.


  1. What are common ways sustainable communities fall apart?

  2. Is a code-of-conduct useful in online environments?

  3. Can communities stay sustainable without censorship? If so, how are people held accountable?

  4. How can communities combat bad-faith actors without censorship? (Bots, rage-bait, etc)

  5. Are hybrid (join in-person, speak online) communities a sustainable model?

  6. Does content length affect how sustainable a community is?

  7. Should communities have backup websites in-case their chosen platform goes haywire?

It is very difficult, if not impossible, to create a generalized guideline for online communities. They exist in all shapes and sizes (i.e r/politics, microblogs, friend-group's discord server) and are run by people of different motivation.

In practice, creating a guideline may be worthless. However, for theoretical purposes and platform development, it may be extremely useful. For the developers out there, imagine POSIX for online-community tools or Conventional-Commits for posts.

This is an extremely rough and disjointed draft. Let's make it better.

[–] green@feddit.nl 3 points 2 weeks ago

Will do, thanks for the heads up

[–] green@feddit.nl 2 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (2 children)

[ update ] I did not end up finding what I was looking for, so I made a community instead. It is called Rationale and is @feddit.nl .

As this is a new venture, and I plan on being highly experimental, it will take some time for the vision to be fully realized. But I am honored for any and all support.

If you have any suggestions, DM me or leave a reply on this thread (for open discussion).

[–] green@feddit.nl 1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

I am a dev. The example I gave was meant to be a POV, but in hindsight this was not clear. Because of this, I cannot meaningfully answer your question.

This topic still deserves genuine and transparent research. I have no doubt there are people already working on this, but I have not seen any notable results.

[OFF-TOPIC] To be completely frank with you, I've think that our communities (federation and open-source) are too splintered. Not in the sense of head count (this is good) but in terms of duplicating and abandoning work (this is bad). We really need a way to get a community-pulse on what is generally needed/wanted. I am not sure what the solution for this is, but I know there is one.

[–] green@feddit.nl 2 points 2 weeks ago

We actually agree here. I am not sure what to reply since there's nothing to talk about. I will concede that my example wasn't the best.

As I said prior, people should come with a well thought out hypothesis - those that do not will be filtered by downvotes. And if anything, having so many different perspectives (because its the internet) would eliminate edge-case hypotheses.

Obviously this is assuming everyone is acting in good faith (which is extremely unlikely) but, as I said prior, this is what mods are for.

I'm on the 411 because I was curious if anyone figured this out and had a functioning community around it. I think Lemmy, and the internet as a whole, would really benefit from a community like this existing.

[–] green@feddit.nl 4 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

This is true, but only for now.

The point of decentralized social platforms is to eventually include everyone. This is not to say this is Lemmy's goal, but it is certainly the goal of its users. The tech-illiterate will show up en-masse (they always do) and what will be our answer for it? From what I see, we have none - this is no different than living on borrowed time.

We have to remember that "enshittification", before all else, is a cultural issue. When the people that have this culture arrive, the whole platform will suffer for it (hence what I said earlier). Humans are just better with dealing with this in real-life, but the internet poses a lot more challenges that I just do not think we are ready for.

[–] green@feddit.nl 3 points 2 weeks ago (3 children)

You make an excellent point, and I've never thought about it this way before.

Devs are not newbie friendly at all. We were all noobs at some point and (if we're being honest) remember the excruciating pain it took to become versed. Most people are not going to go through this, so FOSS naturally loses a lot of non-tech talent (including UX).

What I didn't think about is that there really isn't a way for UX people to contribute at all. GitHub Issues, at most, allows for people to make feature-requests - but beyond that it's just not viable.

For example, I am a UX designer and would like to contribute or iterate a layout. My demonstration includes several images and a video. First off, where do I do this? I could use GitHub Issues, but this is an extremely painful process that is likely far removed from my normal workflow. I could use YouTube, and then link on GitHub issues - but then I have to jump through several annoying hoops for a still sub-optimal workflow.

Git itself also has worked very poorly with binary files (png jpg mp3 wav...) until the recent advent of git-lfs. Binary iteration using base git is just a non-starter.

I am shocked to say it, but I cannot think of any development UI that is actually decent for non-tech people. If anyone does FOSS UX, and I am wrong about the tooling, please correct me.

[–] green@feddit.nl 2 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

This is a great suggestion and really scratches a lot I was looking for. I also stumbled across archives of the original blog - which were excellent.

The only issue is the perspective things are told from. People come there with solutions but it's more of a "talking at you" than "building a solution together". If I had to make an analogy, it's like shareware versus open-source - both great, but distinct.

It's not quite what I'm looking for, but I still highly recommend.

[–] green@feddit.nl 4 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

TIL, thanks for the heads up.

I am still interested in the concept of cataloguing threads from really intelligent people - like Wikipedia for Lemmy. Have you ever seen an insanely helpful thread and been like "this needs to be archived"? I have at least a dozen times.

[–] green@feddit.nl 3 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (3 children)

A magazine is a really interesting concept, I will keep that in mind.

The problem with hyper-focused communities is that they tend to not focus on the general problems people face. This is not to say that it isn't important, but it is harder to "connect the dots" or "get the big picture".

[–] green@feddit.nl 5 points 2 weeks ago

Thanks for the suggestions, I checked them out

nostupidquestions has the spirit of what I'm looking for, but isn't quite there (lack of scrutiny).

[–] green@feddit.nl 4 points 2 weeks ago

Yeah, it is quite discouraging. I feel this is what the internet was made for, but I have yet to find anything like it anywhere. I will also admit that upkeep of this type of community would be challenging considering bad-faith actors, bots, and ragebait being so effective.

What I am looking for does not seem to fit neatly into any one category, so I'll try to use a POV. I am a person, and see something in my community that is a reoccurring problem. I do not know how this can be fixed or what steps I can take to try to fix it, so I go to _____ on lemmy to ask.

My example was not the best. I thought it was straightforward, but can now see that it can be interpreted in many ways - I'll probably update it.

[–] green@feddit.nl 5 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

You are correct, but I am not attempting to avoid poltics. I just wanted to make clear that r/politics is not what I am looking for

 

I'm not referring to r/politics (or equivalents). Rather a group that identifies potential problems (i.e widespread obesity) ; why it may be happening (i.e too much sugar in food) ; and potential ways society can fix this problem?

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